Kevin Pollak's Chat Show 10. April 2009 Ein ausführliches Gespräch von 2009, aufgezeichnet wenige Tage nach der Enthüllung der Limousine Tesla Model S. Musk erläutert die Argumente für Elektroautos, seine Leidenschaft für Raketen und die frühen Kämpfe von Tesla und SpaceX.
Ein ausführliches Gespräch von 2009, aufgezeichnet wenige Tage nach der Enthüllung der Limousine Tesla Model S. Musk erläutert die Argumente für Elektroautos, seine Leidenschaft für Raketen und die frühen Kämpfe von Tesla und SpaceX.
Transkript Kevin Pollak
My next guest, I'm going to give you a little bit of a heads up in terms of who this next gentleman is and also admit that I am coming to this interview, I think, with the freshest eyes that he's probably faced in a while. That is to say, I was an instant fan when I found out about what this man has done, but I wanted to have him on so that I could ask the. The real straightforward, simple questions, which is one of the reasons I wanted to do this show, which is to not only meet people that I admired as well as have people on that I've worked with, but when I meet people and they know me from movies or what have you, they all want to know, really the hardships and how you got from there to here, and then they want to hear about your project. So I think that's where we're going to start today. And I'm going to now welcome the founder and CEO of Tesla Motors as well as SpaceX. I hope I pronounced those correctly.
Elon Musk
Yes, absolutely.
Kevin Pollak
And Elon Musk is also. Yeah, okay, good. So thank you very much. First of all, you're welcome for, for joining us here. And I also have to thank you profusely for not bolting out the door after watching the last four minutes of my show.
Elon Musk
It was difficult.
Kevin Pollak
It must have been.
Kevin Pollak
Because it's very different world. And I'm sure that there was a moment, at least a moment, one in your mind, that said, oh, my God,
Elon Musk
what am I doing here?
Kevin Pollak
What have I gotten myself into? Well, here's the thing. These, these interviews. Have you been on Charlie Rose yet?
Elon Musk
No, but I will be, I think later this month or early next.
Elon Musk
Well, watch the show.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, yeah. As a viewer, you understand that one of the wonderful things about his show that I'm trying so desperately to emulate blatantly is actual conversations. Throughout my career, I've been fortunate enough to do almost every talk show that's existed for the last 20 years, starting with Johnny Carson and Larry King and all of them. And they're all about little sound bites and they're all about little quick anecdotes, in my case, with punchlines and characters. Rarely is there an opportunity to have an actual conversation and to find out more details about what it is that drives you to do what you do and got you to the place that you're at today. So thank you very much for everything you're about to share. We've got twitter.com asking questions live. We've got folks actually very excited to ask questions. I'm going to start pretty much with, you know, reading a lot about you in preparation. All that stuff is, you know, Wikipedia and various sites to find out one's history. How old were you?
Elon Musk
It's all hit or miss.
Kevin Pollak
I know it's all hit or miss. I find it to be that way. How old were you, if I may? Let's just start here. When the first vision popped into your head about working and bringing an electric car to the consumer.
Elon Musk
Well, I've been interested in electric cars for a long time. Actually, I used to think about it quite a bit in college. So it's been probably 17, 18 years that I've been thinking about the area. In fact, I used to talk to my dates in college about the importance of electric cars.
Kevin Pollak
And how did that work out for you? Not well.
Elon Musk
It's not a great date conversation. No, no. In fact, I ran into someone who I briefly dated in college and she brought this up, and she's a writer for Scientific American these days and come to do an interview with me and actually mentioned that it was a memorable date. Not necessarily in a good way. Right.
Kevin Pollak
One she would never forget.
Elon Musk
Yeah, absolutely. But I'm kind of a science and engineering guy. So for me, it's been obvious for a while that the future we have to figure out a way to get off oil and that the solution is electric cars. The advantage of an electric car is that you can generate that electricity by renewable means. And so if you consume the electricity, if you're running electric cars and then you're generating your power with solar, wind, geothermal, which is increasing dramatically, by the way.
Elon Musk
And if you're doing that, then you have a sustainable solution for the future. And obviously, if you're burning oil, that's something that's going to end sooner or later. And so it's better to do it sooner and avoid the environmental damage than later and have the environmental damage plus a massive wealth transfer from the United States to other countries.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, well, that's a big part of it too, is how do we take back control of our destiny, quite frankly. And so this idea came to you 17, 18 years ago. I think it was around that time that for the most part, those who were starting to hear rumblings of an electric car, myself included, were thinking whoever puts out a gorgeous as well as functional electric car wins in terms of exciting first a few and then the masses eventually with as the prices become more affordable to all consumers. Initially, what people are praising and also damning, you know, there's both sides of it. Initially you started with the Roadster, Right, The Tesla Roadster, which a huge success.
Elon Musk
It has been very successful. Yeah.
Kevin Pollak
How. Just walk us through, if you wouldn't mind, the chronological pieces of business here, because this really is fascinating to a great many of us. From conception to rolling out that first model. Just in terms of a brief history of the. I can't imagine the hardships that took place in trying to get this thing to come to fruition.
Elon Musk
Yeah, it's certainly been technically quite difficult from a business standpoint. Quite difficult. And then it's been overlaid with a bit of a sort of soap opera from a personnel standpoint.
Kevin Pollak
Please feel free to share all of that, whatever you're comfortable sharing. We'd love to hear whatever you can legally share.
Elon Musk
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll try to actually. I'll focus on the non personnel.
Elon Musk
Because I think that's more pertinent for the future in terms of where do we come from, where are we headed? And that kind of thing. So in starting a car company, it's obviously a high capital endeavor and particularly when you're talking about something which is a brand new technology and no one had really gotten all the pieces to work together quite right. To create a compelling product. As far as electric cars are concerned,
Kevin Pollak
there's a couple of people who tried and companies that came and went well,
Elon Musk
and some of those companies are sort of still here today. Like General motors had the EV1, and actually if they'd continued and produced the EV2, EV3 and continued that development, there probably wouldn't have been a need for Tesla. But they didn't, unfortunately. They took those cars away from people forcibly and crushed them. Literally crushed them. And if people have seen Chris Payne's movie who Killed the Electric Car? Which I recommend, you can see some of that. It's amazing that the people who Jim gave those EV ones to held a candlelit vigil for their cars getting crushed. I mean, can you imagine anyone holding a can look visual for a GM car?
Kevin Pollak
No, I really can't.
Kevin Pollak
Or any product is the point.
Elon Musk
Why would you discontinue a product line with that level of customer interest? That's pretty amazing.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, it's pretty well documented in that film. Okay, so but I'll give you the
Elon Musk
chronology and the reasoning. Why did we start with the car that we started with? Because I do get asked the question, why are you making this expensive sports car? Implying that we somehow think there's a shortage of sports cars in the world. Or rich people really need a break or something like that. It's absurd if you think of it, but nonetheless, people get a little confused, like why can't you make it an affordable car?
Kevin Pollak
I wanted to give you the opportunity to explain.
Elon Musk
Yeah, absolutely. And there are two reasons. One. One is that when you have a brand new technology, it tends to be expensive. It's almost always expensive, in fact, because the first thing you're trying to do is to make it work. And if you're just trying to make it work, you don't have an opportunity to optimize the cost. And if you think about anything new, when cell phones first came out, they were very expensive. Personal computers were very expensive. Even gasoline engine cars in the beginning were very, very expensive. Could only be afforded by a few people.
Kevin Pollak
Absolutely. Who doesn't remember the $1,400 VCR? Right.
Kevin Pollak
It's part of our.
Elon Musk
In fact, you can point at almost anything new innovation. It starts off expensive because the first thing you're trying to do is make it work.
Kevin Pollak
Cell phones the size of a shoebox, $1,800.
Elon Musk
I remember Wall street with the guy walking around with that shoebox phone, basically. So a new technology is expensive. And then the other factor is economies of scale. So in order to make something inexpensive, you have to make a lot of it. But to put together a factory that can make hundreds of thousands of cars costs a billion dollars or more.
Kevin Pollak
And who's going to take a chance?
Elon Musk
Right. And the thing is, it would still be silly to try to do that economies of scale thing on the first iteration of technology because it's still going to be expensive. And this is a problem that GM is starting to see with the bolt because they're having trouble bringing the cost of that car below $40,000. And that's problematic when you're talking about a car that is essentially intended to compete against gasoline cars that are in the 25 to $30,000 range. It's very important that an electric car be of comparable price to other cars of its type. So the Tesla Roadster is actually about the same price as a Porsche.
Kevin Pollak
In many cases less.
Elon Musk
Yeah. In fact, less than a Porsche Turbo. So anyway, so that's basically the reason it was the first generation of technology and we were necessarily at low volume because we didn't have the capital to go to high volume manufacturing.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah. And you weren't making an inexpensive sports car. You were making a brand new, state of the art sports car. That was some of the negativity that I didn't Understand, because it didn't seem to come from naive people. It seemed to come from people who seemed very scholar in their particular areas of expertise, who completely missed the obvious justification in terms of what kind of vehicle you were actually making from the ground up. And it being the first of its kind, I'm astounded by.
Elon Musk
Well, a common misperception is that because for the roadster, we worked with Lotus and we did initially intend to use a modified Lotus Elise chassis for our car, people think, oh, it's just a modified Lotus. But actually we had to redesign almost every part of the car. And our initial thought of, well, we can just use a Lotus Elise chassis turned out not to be true because the weight distribution is all different, the load points are all different. Our car ended up being 30% heavier. We had to redesign almost everything. In fact, there's only 7% parts commonality between our car and Elise.
Kevin Pollak
And those are the letters. First of all, there's five letters in Lotus, so that's a bit of the 7% right there.
Elon Musk
Well, there's no Lotus actually. There's nothing any Lotus logos on the car. Of course not, but nonetheless it is. So 7% parts commonality is actually that, that means when somebody like J.M. ford announces an all new car, that all new car has more than 7% commonality with prior cars.
Kevin Pollak
Excellent point.
Elon Musk
So in other words, this is a newer new car than most new cars. Almost all new cars. And yeah, so it was tricky to bring it in for the price that we did bring it in. In fact, there was some pretty big mistakes made initially on, on the estimates of costs, and that forced us to raise the price later in order not to be shipping product at a loss.
Kevin Pollak
What's the time frame from the first sort of breaking ground on the space where you're going to manufacture this car?
Elon Musk
Obviously a prototype to be the sedan or the roads is in production.
Elon Musk
How long did it take?
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, but I mean, they're on the road now.
Elon Musk
Yes, yes. In fact, we've delivered over 300 cars, approaching 400 cars.
Kevin Pollak
And when was the first one delivered?
Elon Musk
Well, the first production car was delivered in February of last year. That was my car. But it was. I mean, the initial production rate was about one every three to four weeks. Wow. And then it's got up to two every three to four weeks before. And then, and now we're at the point where we're about 20 to 25 per week.
Kevin Pollak
And now at what point during the roadster building process does The S model begin its drawing boards almost immediately.
Elon Musk
Well, we've been working on the Model S for about two years if you take this sort of early conceptual stuff into account.
Kevin Pollak
So you really obviously have to focus everything on the roadster first, get it up and running and then. But in the back of your mind, the master plan is the Model S.
Elon Musk
Yeah, the basic plan of action, the master plan was and is to produce an expensive car in low volume, then a lower cost car in kind of medium cost car in medium volume and then a low cost car in high volume. And that's the, the plan. That was my plan from the beginning and that remains the plan today. And we've been able to accelerate the low cost car a little bit by working with Daimler, the maker of Mercedes and Smart, to create an electric smart car.
Kevin Pollak
Oh really? Yeah, that's the third phase after the
Elon Musk
Model X. I think we'll probably still do a third generation platform of our own, but as a means of accelerating low cost vehicle access, we're working with companies like Daimler to get there sooner. So my understanding is Daimler is planning to have the beginning of that thousand car test fleet on the roads towards the end of this year.
Kevin Pollak
So you're already focusing on working with an existing manufacturer in terms of bringing the electric car to a larger consumer base.
Elon Musk
Yeah, really. The overarching point of Tesla is to accelerate the electric car revolution. And that's going to be a combination of cars we produce and cars that we help other companies produce. In fact, we've been trying to sell our technology to Detroit and to other car companies in other parts of the world for a couple years now. And it's ironic that the really the first company to do that is not an American company, but it's a German company, Daimler. In fact, Daimler was the one that invented the internal combustion engine car. So you know, they're the oldest car company in the world and they're actually
Kevin Pollak
being here they are jumping in with
Elon Musk
the electric car full force.
Kevin Pollak
As we move into your describing the Model S and its conception, we have some photos that we can throw up and let people look at while you're talking about it. Because I got to be honest, when I saw the roadster, I was wildly impressed, but I was waiting. I was waiting for a non sports car, more of a sedan.
Kevin Pollak
Which is what.
Elon Musk
And most people weren't.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah. And I do feel like the larger audience is already chomping at the bit. And when I saw this car, I flipped out. I just could not believe something like this had been achieved when I wasn't looking. Because you did an awfully good job keeping it under wraps all these months, if not how the first prototype was completed.
Elon Musk
Yeah, well, the first prototype was just completed last month when we. And that's when we did the unveiling of the Model S, the first drivable prototype. We've been working on the Model S in earnest for about a little over a year.
Kevin Pollak
A little over a year, yeah. So you're saying only a week or so before you unveiled it on March 26th. Was it March 26th? Yeah.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah. Only a week before was it actually fully functioning and ready to be driven?
Kevin Pollak
That's fantastic.
Kevin Pollak
Because that sort of thing happens in my business. Yeah. Not fantastic for you. I can't imagine. I don't understand how you have any hair left after that sort of nail biter than in my business. That sort of thing happens all the time. People rushing to get their film ready for the Sundance Film Festival. I've seen big studio films that are still polishing and doing last minute special effects adjustments way after they've announced their release date and rushing it into theaters and oh my goodness, I can't even imagine the sort of pressure involved. So we've been looking at some pictures. Yeah, wonderful. We're still looking at them. Great. Because this car is so gorgeous. Okay, I'm going to. I'm going to get a little selfish here and also lean this towards people like myself who want to. Who have the next series of questions which are when will this car be available to me and what is the process for me to sign up and get one now?
Elon Musk
Well, the car will be available in two years, which is. That's when we'll be finished with all the crash testing and all the regulatory stuff and have built out the factory. Because this is a true mass production car. In fact, the Model S will be the first mass production electric vehicle or true car, that highway capable car.
Kevin Pollak
What numbers of.
Elon Musk
Not a golf cart type of thing.
Kevin Pollak
What numbers of mass production are we talking about?
Elon Musk
We're talking about 20,000 a year.
Kevin Pollak
So when you unveil. You want to have 20,000 ready?
Elon Musk
Well, we'll still be over a year.
Kevin Pollak
Roll them out.
Elon Musk
It'll take a little bit of time to spool up the production line. But these will be mass manufactured cars where robots are doing things as opposed to hand built cars. Because the roadster is really a hand built car. Right.
Kevin Pollak
You got robots building the model.
Elon Musk
A lot of it, yeah.
Kevin Pollak
Now I've heard everything from the third quarter of 2010 to the beginning of 2012. What's realistic for the Model S?
Elon Musk
Well, our aspiration is to have the first production cars available in the third quarter of above 2011. So just over two years from now. And I think it's achievable. And I think there's much less technology risk and uncertainty than there was with the Roadster. So I do feel reasonably confident that we can meet that date. Of course, it is dependent on when the Department of Energy disperses funds for the loan program that they have. There's something called the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program, which was actually put into effect by Congress last year. And then the DOE is just on the verge of awarding those loan programs. It's intended to provide a lower cost of capital to companies that are developing energy efficient cars.
Kevin Pollak
Well, it couldn't make more sense to those of us who have been waiting for this to happen. So we're glad that they're going to pitch in. There's also going to be a $7,500 rebate.
Elon Musk
There is. There is already a $7,500 rebate. That's as of January 1st. So it's a tax rebate. Applies to anyone, regardless of your tax situation.
Kevin Pollak
And the first base price is $49,900 and it goes up from there depending on the size of the battery.
Elon Musk
Yes. The base price of the Model S is 49,900, and that's for the basic version, which has 160 mile range. But you can get a battery pack that goes up to 300 miles in range.
Elon Musk
And in fact, one of the things we think we'll probably do Is have the 300 mile packs available for rent. So if you're just using your car.
Kevin Pollak
Please do that.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Kevin Pollak
Please do that. Because this car is unbelievably exciting. And I think the instinct is much like other forms of technology, there's going to be the I want the everything package and then there's going to be a lot of people who can't really afford the everything package. They can barely get into the car as it is. But they're dying to get into this car. Sure. So that sure would be fantastic if they could rent that larger battery if and when they ever needed it. Because for a lot of people, 160 miles around town as their everyday car is fantastic.
Elon Musk
Right. Average person drives 30 miles a day. So 160 miles is five times what the average person drives in a day.
Kevin Pollak
Are all three batteries. This quick charge of 45 minutes yeah,
Elon Musk
the car will have a standard 45 minute. All cars will come with the ability to charge in 45 minutes. Now I should point out that the 45 minutes does require an off board charger. So you won't be able to use the onboard charger to do the 45 minute charge. The onboard charger you have to pull
Kevin Pollak
over and take the battery out.
Elon Musk
No, you just need, you need to just go to a charging station that's kind of an industrial strength charging station because that's a lot of power. More than most houses are capable of delivering. But the onboard charger that's built into the car will be capable of recharging the car in about three to four hours.
Kevin Pollak
So overnight you plug the car in.
Elon Musk
Yeah, no problem.
Kevin Pollak
And is it going to be like my computer where I can overcharge it and then it's bad for the computer. I don't want to leave it plugged in overnight.
Elon Musk
There's a lot of intelligence in the battery pack. It won't allow itself to be charged incorrectly.
Kevin Pollak
Excellent. Will I get better servers than AT&T than I do with my iPhone? Is the real question here? The computer on board? Yeah, but before I get to that, there's one thing that Wired magazine wrote a very, I thought, supportive article about the Model S. And then there's all sorts of debates going on in the comment section of that article.
Kevin Pollak
And a lot of naysayers, as always, they line up like idiots.
Elon Musk
We seem to. Tesla seems to generate a bipolar response.
Kevin Pollak
Well, yeah, you know what, that's fantastic though. I mean, if anything it should challenges you to rise above all questions and inquiries and be able to answer them all and be able to attribute the genius and expertise of your design people and yourself. Because I do understand also that you've as an engineer yourself have really been at the forefront of the design.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I started to think of the right title, but a good description would be Product Architect. So at Tesla we do have a chief Technology Officer at JB Straubel who's been with the company from the beginning and really is the person most responsible for leading the technology of Tesla. He's a great guy and also like to credit France von Holzhausen in terms of the design of the Model S. And the way I look at it is I sort of work with them and the other members of the Tesla team to create a great product because I think great companies are building great products.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, well, yes. Hell yes. Forgive me for reading this, but I don't want to miss this and I Want to. I was hoping I could put this to you to address the why is the Model S still so expensive? Question. A wonderful article in Wired magazine written by Chuck Squatriglia once. I'm sure I'm destroying his name. I'm sorry. Very supportive of design. Not only the car, but the master plan in general of Tesla Motors to roll out the so called more exp of models first with the $109,000 Roadster and then now the 49,000 up to 54,000. I think it is Model S. Tons of comments posted. One reader, obviously an EV driver hit on some wonderful points that I wanted your feedback on. That really sort of drove a point home that I don't think a lot of people are considering and that is wildly ignored. I think when you know these people are considering the sticker price only as opposed to the fuel and maintenance. And when you own a car, you pay for more than just the initial purchase price. You also pay for fuel and maintenance. And it is these two very important unavoidable truths that EV costs. A miniscule of what the ICE or internal combustion engine costs. The EV motor has only one moving part on the roadster and presumably the Model S the only regular.
Elon Musk
This is true. Well, technically there are some gears, but yeah, right.
Kevin Pollak
Regular maintenance items really are brakes and tires.
Elon Musk
Not even the brakes actually, because regenerative braking means that your brake pads see very little wear.
Kevin Pollak
I love this. The EVs actual fuel cost, they've narrowed it down to 2 to 3 cents per mile. Sounds familiar.
Elon Musk
That's about right.
Kevin Pollak
So if you keep your Model S for the average of 10 year 100,000 mile lifespan, you replace your tires, brakes, which are not the case for say $1,000 each time. Again, these numbers can vary. And pay up $3,000 for the fuel. Over this hundred thousand miles, your 49,900 purchase price only increases to around 54,900. The IRS says driving a ICE internal combustion engine car costs 50.5 cents per mile inclusive of fuel maintenance. At that rate over the lifespan, the same lifespan, Ford Taurus with a sticker price of $25,000 increases over that lifespan to $7500-075500-75500. Theoretically. Therefore, the ICE car with a sticker price of zero would still cost more than the Model S after those hundred thousand miles. I don't think people have done that math in terms of the initial investment. Oh my God, it's so much more than a Taurus.
Elon Musk
Yeah, well, actually, I think perhaps the best way to Address that question is not even to have people do the math because we will have our car for lease. And so if you take our lease cost and the lease cost of a gasoline car and you add in the cost of ridiculous, the cost of fuel and maintenance on the gasoline car and the cost of electricity and maintenance on the electric car, then you have the savings from the beginning. There's no need to add this up over five, seven years or whatever. You can simply say how much is transportation costing me every month? And you will have the savings from day one.
Kevin Pollak
But I will shove people out of the way who want a lease so that I can get one so that I can buy one.
Elon Musk
If you do that, in fact, we're going to put a calculator on our website, hopefully in the next week or two so you can plug in and you can say, okay, what do you think the price of gasoline is going to be? And you can put in the price of gasoline and what's your electricity cost and the cost of electricity and then we'll say what's the probable operating cost per month? And then how does that compare and compare that to cars of different types?
Kevin Pollak
It becomes pretty clear, doesn't it?
Elon Musk
Yeah. And then it's pretty obvious that if you assume that gasoline is going to get back up above $4 a gallon, which I think that's a certainty, in fact, I think it's going to go way beyond that. And then you put in the cost of electricity, particularly if you have time of use meters like in places like California where you can get 7 cents a kilowatt hour, then our car is comparable to a Ford Taurus.
Kevin Pollak
Well, let's talk about what you need in your home to keep this car charged on a regular basis. What sort of setup do you need electrically?
Elon Musk
You really don't need much of anything. You can, if you are only driving say 30 miles a day or something like that, you can actually plug it, charge it out of a regular 110 volt socket, typically plug it in like
Kevin Pollak
it's a hair dryer for overnight. In terms of your range, your range is going to lower though.
Elon Musk
Well, 110 volt supply will generate, will recharge about five or six miles an hour. So if you're say driving 30 miles a day and you charge it for just for six hours, you've topped it up essentially. So that's certainly possible.
Kevin Pollak
You want unplug the toaster and plug in the car.
Elon Musk
So it is worthwhile. And we actually have many roadster customers that operate the car on that basis.
Kevin Pollak
That's fantastic.
Elon Musk
Yeah. And that comes along with the base price. And then if you want to do a faster charge, the next step up would be a 240 volt 40amp circuit which is comparable to a dryer. So it's like a dryer plug.
Elon Musk
So it doesn't cost very. It costs a couple hundred bucks to install a dryer outlet in your garage. And again, that just operates off the onboard charge from the car. So you just plug it in like it's a dryer or a range or something like that. And that'll charge a lot faster. That'll charge the car in seven or eight hours.
Elon Musk
Full charge, yeah.
Kevin Pollak
And the quick charge will be only available at these charging stations.
Elon Musk
Yeah, the quick charge. We're talking about something which is. It's a lot of power. I mean, 45 minutes. You're talking about something which is on the order of a 60 kilowatt power source. There's very few houses that you break the massive circuit on.
Kevin Pollak
Most it's a bad idea. Yeah.
Elon Musk
And it's overkill and unnecessary for a house. But I do think a lot of businesses may choose to install that for their employees and that where this will really come in handy is when you're going between cities. So there's three ways that we've addressed the range issue on the model S. One is by offering a range up to 300 miles. And like I said, we're also hoping to be able to say, allow people to buy the 160 mile range car and then rent the 300 mile range pack as needed.
Kevin Pollak
You'll give them a map of where these charging stations are along the route. So if they want to drive across country, you'll let them know where. Yeah.
Elon Musk
In fact, you mentioned that the touchscreen. The car will be 3G connected to 3G wireless connected all the time. So you won't need a map. You can just ask the car, take me to the next charge. Next charging station and it'll give you a selection of locations.
Kevin Pollak
If you could, if there's any way you could put in a phrasing that just at some point the car says, stop busting my balls. I just want to put that out there. Let's go to.
Elon Musk
Actually, we are going to off. We are going to offer, you know what, how can you show a receipt?
Elon Musk
We are going to offer themes so you can actually theme your. Because it's all just a big screen. You have a 17 inch center console screen and you've got a smaller sort of Display screen on the front, you can theme your car. So if you just like you sort of theme your desktop or your cell
Kevin Pollak
phone, give it a little cynicism, give it a little.
Elon Musk
Yeah, absolutely playful. And there'll be people that probably want to write applications that do various things. And your center console is a full fledged computer running Linux. So it's something where it'll have a browser if you want to browse and search the web, do your email while not driving, while not driving, while charging.
Kevin Pollak
If you want to go sit down,
Elon Musk
it could do things like read out your email for you.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, no. Did you show any pictures of this monitor when we ran through.
Kevin Pollak
If you want to throw them back up now that we're talking about it, if you have that one isolated. Because it is pretty astounding, that whole part of it. And people go to the website Tesla Motors, they can do a little more research in terms of what you're offering in that monitor because it is wildly extensive. If there's anything else in it that you do want to address.
Elon Musk
Well, we are taking advantage of economies of scale from the computer business, which is a lot bigger than the car business in unit volume. You've got hundreds of millions of computers shipping every year, whereas you've got a much smaller number of cars shipping every year now less than ever, Right? Absolutely. So by putting in 17 inch monitors in the computer business these days are dirt cheap. And so it's really not that expensive for us to do this.
Kevin Pollak
Right. Well, what it is is cutting edge and that's one of the things that makes the car so unbelievably desirable. What about, they're asking here twitter.com for the next generation of road vehicles, what would they be when the electric car have become obsolete? Wow. People are going on to the next generation beyond the electric car. I'm not sure that's for this discussion.
Elon Musk
Electric car is a long term sol.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah. You know there's, as you were pointing out in terms of how to power the electricity, that's where we can diversify. Be it water, be it solar power, be it wind. Yeah, I'm not sure wind is the correct word.
Elon Musk
There may be. I mean the only thing I could see as being, as potentially being a change is, and this is speculative, is a switch from batteries to high energy density capacitors. In fact, I originally came out to California to do a PhD at Stanford in the material science and physics of high energy density capacitors for use in electric cars. That's what initially brought me to Silicon Valley. And Then ended up putting that on hold. Started a couple Internet companies, but it was. So I think that's a possibility. I'm not sure whether success is one of the possible outcomes, but it's a possibility.
Kevin Pollak
Any chance for a flux capacitor? Well, Marty, where's the flux capacitor? Sorry, I did that on a dare.
Elon Musk
I suppose you could call it a flux capacitor. Flux just means sort of flow, right. Of anything. You know, you flex it, energy, flux, anything.
Kevin Pollak
So ask Elon how we can help Tesla Motors get the federal loan. And also where the factory. The factory here in Los Angeles. I don't know if you want to get specifics about. Where in Los Angeles is it that the SpaceX, where you have the.
Elon Musk
Yeah, the Tesla design studio is inside the SpaceX rocket factory and the design center is in Southern California. Because the world's best automotive design talent is actually right here in Southern California.
Kevin Pollak
You're welcome.
Elon Musk
It's true. And Franz von Holzhausen, our designer, head of design, was based here when he worked at Mazda before joining us. And it's just a really big temple, so. And rather than go rent a whole separate space, it was just easier to allocate some space in the SpaceX rocket factory for the Tesla design. Also made it also very convenient for me to work with Franz, who's a great guy to work with. We're very much on the same wavelength. It's great, actually. So as far as helping on the DOE front, I actually think we're okay. Definitely. Any voice of support is great. You know, mentioning it to your congressman or senator, that does help, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Kevin Pollak
If they feel a groundswell, if they feel that the public. There's a public demand. Yeah.
Elon Musk
I think it's helpful to let your congressman and senator know that you think companies like Tesla should get a portion of the ATVM program. And I should mention what we're asking for is really a tiny. We're only asking for about 1 1/2% of the ATVM program. The vast majority of it will go to GM, Ford, Chrysler, they'll get 98%.
Kevin Pollak
One and a half percent.
Elon Musk
You're asking. Yeah, we're asking for 1.5%. I think it's not a big ask.
Kevin Pollak
Can we get Barack on the phone, people? Tyler Krug, what are you laughing about? Yeah, it doesn't seem unreasonable at all to be asking for the 1.5%.
Elon Musk
I think we can probably put it to better use than gm.
Kevin Pollak
Yes. Well, you know what? I would love to have them in this room. And watch that debate. Quite frankly, SpaceX came first and it is a thriving industry that only recently actually stepped up its game, or so it seems, from what I'm reading. You want to share some of the Latest news?
Elon Musk
Well, SpaceX, we got to orbit last year, which is a fairly big deal. Our rocket is arguably the first completely privately developed rocket to reach orbit, although there's some dispute on that front. But it's unequivocally the first liquid fuel privately developed rocket to reach orbit. And that's a tough thing. Most countries can't do that. So it's a.
Kevin Pollak
And how many years did that take?
Elon Musk
That was six years from start to reaching.
Kevin Pollak
And so when the money is just evaporating as you're pouring all the time and energy in your life into this vision, how often people want to hear about the struggle? How often does the thought enter your mind? You know, it's just, it's too much. There's other things I want to do with my life because I have to assume this is all consuming for you.
Elon Musk
Well, I spend a lot of time with my kids. I mean, there's really just, I guess, four things that I do. There's SpaceX and Tesla, which take about roughly half of my business time each. Then there's my kids, and then I sleep. I mean, that's like four things I do and often sleep doesn't. I don't get a lot of sleep.
Kevin Pollak
That becomes the commodity, doesn't it?
Elon Musk
Yeah, it was definitely difficult. The fourth quarter of last year was very difficult and yeah, it was. Well, it was very difficult for everyone, I think.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, for everyone. Until we found out, of course, that Britney Spears is back. And then it all sort of lightened our load a little bit.
Elon Musk
Absolutely. There was a glimmer of hope.
Kevin Pollak
Right, well put. That's what I would have called it as well, a glimmer. So six years from the design and from the vision, and then last year your first complete orbit.
Elon Musk
Yeah, absolutely. We came close on our second and third flights. We did reach space, but we did not reach orbital velocity in our second and third flights. And then our fourth flight, we reached orbital velocity. And then we've got another flight coming up towards the end of this month and that's going to deliver a satellite for Malaysia.
Kevin Pollak
You have to take on some commercial cargo.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We have a wide variety of customers, actually. NASA is our biggest customer by far, but we have many other customers as well. Sweden is a customer, Malaysia, as I mentioned, Canada. And then we also have some purely commercial customers. We'll be launching a satellite for Avanti, which is a European broadcast satellite company. And. Yeah, so expound a little bit if
Kevin Pollak
you can with your relationship with NASA, because I think this is pretty fascinating, quite frankly.
Elon Musk
Yeah, well, I love NASA. I want to say that NASA is awesome.
Kevin Pollak
Well, they believe in you. So I tend to agree with people who agree with me. So I understand where you're coming from.
Elon Musk
Yeah, NASA's actually been really supportive and SpaceX would not have gotten as far as it did without NASA's help. So I want to acknowledge that. And in December of last year, NASA actually gave us the contract to be the replacement for the space shuttle as far as cargo is concerned. So the space shuttle retires at the end of next year. And then NASA does have a long term plan for developing a launch vehicle and a spacecraft called the Ares Orion Project, but that's intended to go back to the moon and that's only going to see flight probably around the 2016 time frame. So there's kind of a gap of five or six years. But we still have a space station up there that we've got to service. So what do we do during that gap? And that's why NASA took the unprecedented step of saying, okay, let's see what the private sector can do and let's.
Kevin Pollak
You stepped up.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah, we did. And so NASA felt confident enough to award. They actually had a competition and there were 20 missions and we got 12 of the 28 of them were awarded to another company, Orbital Sciences. And then there was a third competitor which was a joint venture of Boeing, Lockheed and Align Tech Systems, which actually did not get any of the missions. So that was a big upset.
Kevin Pollak
A huge upset.
Kevin Pollak
I mean, I wouldn't blame any of your engineers when that moment happened if they sort of rallied together and said suck it to those people.
Elon Musk
Right. So it was.
Kevin Pollak
I knew I could break it.
Elon Musk
Very lucky to find companies, of course.
Kevin Pollak
Please, they're doing just fine without my little cynicism. So you're well established now with your relationship with NASA. They're clearly depending on you. You've won this competition.
Elon Musk
They really are depending on us. And so it's actually quite a big responsibility which we take very seriously. And so we're working very hard to make sure we don't let them down.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah. And you were just in Washington just before the Model S announcement, right. About the. Well, tell us what you were.
Elon Musk
Actually, I'm in Washington quite a lot because there's a lot of interests there, both for SpaceX and Tesla.
Kevin Pollak
There was a bit of an announcement right before the March 26th. You were there. I was reading something where you had to address a group.
Elon Musk
Maybe it was the satellite. There's a big satellite conference in D.C. every year. Yeah. So, yeah, I gave a. A keynote there. Right, yeah. And that was just basically giving people an Update on where SpaceX is and what progress we're making.
Kevin Pollak
That's what I was reading about.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, just basically telling people where we are. And we're expecting to launch our big rocket, the Falcon 9, with the dragon spacecraft later this year.
Kevin Pollak
Right. I think you were discussing the Falcon 9.
Elon Musk
Right. The vehicles we've launched to date are the Falcon 1, which is a much smaller vehicle. So Falcon 9 is very big. In fact, it's going to be the most powerful single core vehicle in the US fleet. By single core, I mean without using side boosters. And then the Falcon 9 heavy, which is the Falcon 9 with side boosters, will actually be the highest payload capable vehicle in the world.
Kevin Pollak
And when did you share that piece of news? Was that something that was.
Elon Musk
It's actually. That's been on our website for a while, though. I'm not sure people believed we'd actually do it.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, I'm sure there were people waiting for that announcement and also now waiting for the failure. You must have a lot of the surrounding people, I mean people who are competitive with you, I speak of who part of them want you to succeed because it opens up opportunities for them. But at the same time, if it's anything at all, like the business of show, there's such competition that even those who succeed feel the sense of there isn't enough to go around and if you succeed, it means I won't. Is there more of a camaraderie from your standpoint?
Elon Musk
Well, it depends on who you're talking about. So there's some companies where we are a great enabler because we're fundamentally. SpaceX is in the transportation business. And if transportation improves, then those who use transportation will find that their business has improved, just as when they finished the transcontinental railway in the early days of early history of the United States, it was a huge boon to businesses in the East Coast. Businesses, people could travel back and forth, goods could transfer a lot easier. So it was really helpful to everyone, except probably the stagecoach companies. They didn't like it that much.
Kevin Pollak
No, they didn't.
Elon Musk
So I think there's more of the space business that wants us to succeed than doesn't want us to succeed.
Kevin Pollak
So are you Feeling more scrutiny about the Model S in terms of competitiveness. Because here's just based on the documentary, the Killing of the Electric Cars. This has happened before. The name itself, Tesla, comes from someone who is obviously squashed by the bigger electric companies.
Elon Musk
Nikola Tesla did pretty well for most of his life, although he went kind of bonkers at the end. Hopefully that doesn't happen to me.
Kevin Pollak
Yes, we're all pulling for that, but I mean, in terms of who got credit for what, that seemed to be the struggle. In terms of the memory. If you ask your average American on the street what they know about Nikolai, it says you're not going to get a lot of.
Elon Musk
Yeah, Edison. I think in the popular mindset, Tesla gets less notice than Edison. In the sort of scientific world, Tesla gets more attention and more credit than Edison. And they both. I think they're both really great men and did amazing things and a little bit of rivalry is probably a good thing.
Kevin Pollak
It's a great thing.
Elon Musk
So I think they're both great. We thought we'd recognize Tesla in naming the car company better than naming it the Elon Car Company or something like that.
Kevin Pollak
I'm proud of you for letting that go. Sure crossed your mind at some point. All right, how many people have signed up, already officially signed up and are awaiting delivery on the Model S?
Elon Musk
I don't know the exact number today, but we're well over 500. Over 500.
Kevin Pollak
How do I build the next one?
Elon Musk
Oh, just go to the website. You can just click the button.
Kevin Pollak
I've got you right here. Are there forms that we could fill out right now?
Elon Musk
Literally, you can.
Kevin Pollak
How easy is this? So you go to the website and you follow the simple instructions, clicking, yes, me. I want one.
Elon Musk
As someone who did PayPal, you can imagine that I have a big focus on making things really easy. Nice job online. So we spend a lot of time at PayPal trying to make things super easy. And actually, if somebody goes to the Tesla Motors, just go to teslamotors.com click on the buy tab. You should be able to put down a reservation for a Model s in under five minutes.
Kevin Pollak
I like that a lot.
Elon Musk
It's a $5,000 reservation, which is refundable, and I'm personally standing behind the reservation payments. So if anyone is concerned about us going out of business, the only thing you should worry about is if I get hit by a bus. And I'm trying to cover that one as well by getting some key man insurance in place. So if I do get hit by a bus, just really there's the bus factor.
Kevin Pollak
That's still an opportunity. I was just thinking, oh, I have buses in LA.
Elon Musk
Fortunately, I'm safe.
Kevin Pollak
500 people times $5,000. You should be able to cover that fairly easily.
Elon Musk
Yeah, it's not going to. I don't think it's going to be. I don't think people's deposit. Well, we can't call it a deposit for legal reasons, but people's reservation payment is, I think, is safe.
Kevin Pollak
But I'm glad we were able to uncover the bus factor. This is very important, I think, to a lot of customers. They need to know.
Elon Musk
Well, I mean, there's still. I mean, there's a tiny bit of risk.
Kevin Pollak
Your kryptonite, apparently, is the bus.
Elon Musk
Right. Well, so there's always a tiny bit of risk. And the tiny bit of risk would be if Tesla goes out of business and I lose all of my assets. And don't die.
Kevin Pollak
And don't die.
Kevin Pollak
There's the rub.
Elon Musk
And for the rest of my life, I'm never able to repay. To build up my assets to the point where people can be repaid. That would be the circumstance under which people would lose their money.
Kevin Pollak
You know what? I'm glad you did the math on that, because I'm sure a lot of people have. Also,
Elon Musk
If bus does hit me, it needs to kill me, not partially paralyze me or something.
Kevin Pollak
For those of you who currently call bus driving your profession, do us all a favor and stay the hell away from this man. If at all possible, hit the dog. If I may, Mr. Musk, I cannot thank you enough for sharing as much as you have. I would love to. To have you on again in terms of watching the progress of SpaceX as well as Tesla, because I am wildly curious and I know an awful lot of people are as well that are just starting to discover what's been going on now in your life for the last six years, in the case of SpaceX, in the last Roadster, rather, and now the last couple years with the Model S and waiting with bated breath to see where this company is going and praying with you and for you, that it succeeds beyond your dreams.
Elon Musk
Thanks. Actually, you know what? You haven't touched on any personal stuff, which is fine, but, you know, I
Kevin Pollak
didn't want to, but I'm happy to go there.
Elon Musk
What would you like to talk about? Well, there is a common misperception which does sort of drive me crazy a little bit. Okay. You know, I sort of. My wife and I are getting. Or my ex Wife and I are getting divorced and we been there. Yeah, yeah.
Elon Musk
The divorce filing took place in sort of June of last year, and so it takes a while for these things to get done.
Kevin Pollak
Boy, does it.
Elon Musk
Yeah. And although my ex wife, to her credit, made it clear in her blog that the marriage was over for reasons that had nothing to do with anyone else, in fact, she wanted to get divorced at least as much as I did, if not more.
Kevin Pollak
That takes a little stress and guilt away. Sure.
Elon Musk
Right. There have been a few articles which have said that I left my wife and five kids for someone else.
Kevin Pollak
I'm glad you brought this up. I wasn't about to go there, but for God's sakes, let's clear a little air here. That would be very frustrating to me as well if that was in press releases and articles written about me when I was trying to change the face of the automobile business. But, yeah, let's talk about it.
Elon Musk
Well, it's. Whatever you'd like to share. If I read that about someone, I would think, what a dick.
Elon Musk
And that would be true if it were true. But actually it's not, because I would never leave my kids. In fact, I see them five days a week.
Kevin Pollak
They keep you from sleeping. We talked about that before. Yeah, yeah. What are the age range of these five children of yours?
Elon Musk
Well, the twins are turning five and the triplets are two and a half. Wow.
Kevin Pollak
Twins and triplets.
Kevin Pollak
That makes the five.
Elon Musk
So, anyway, it's just a point of clarification. There was an article. I think there have been a few articles where that's sort of been mentioned as an offhand comment. In fact, they weren't even. There were positive articles. They just mentioned it sort of off the cuff, and they were corrected in the online version. But, you know, it's difficult sometimes correct these perceptions. On the surface of it may seem that I left my wife or someone else, but I didn't.
Kevin Pollak
Well, this is the problem that comes with the limelight. You see, you've gone beyond your profession and your expertise and your business life, and you're now being scrutinized for your personal life. And I do know a great deal about that from, of course, the business that I chose many years ago. And it's never fair, it's never balanced, and it's always about selling an article or a paper or a magazine and whatever it takes to throw you under that bus, if we may go back to that unfortunate spot, they will do it. And I am more than happy to offer you this form to clear any air in regards to, to this at any time. Because a lot of times, quite frankly, people in show business, they're sort of taught to stay away from it. You know what, don't just leave it. They're going to write whatever they want to write. And I think that it's pretty damn courageous to sit here and say, you know what, this is what's being said about me and I don't appreciate it. So I commend you for that.
Elon Musk
Well, I think it's a correct. I'm certainly not someone who is. I mean, I'm no saint, but I, I'll say.
Kevin Pollak
Well, I didn't know. Say,
Elon Musk
but I generally try to do the right thing and, and you know, so, and so like, like I said, if people actually were to say, go look at my ex wife's blog or something, they'd know, okay, the marriage came to an end because do a little more research, grew apart and just wasn't working and we're making each other unhappy. So. But there are people that always know to do that. And so anyway, well, thank you.
Kevin Pollak
Thank you very much for sharing all of that. I really genuinely appreciate it and I think the people watching appreciate it as much. The whole idea of the show was to not just be an infomercial about a film or a project or the design of an electric car. It was really about getting to know the people behind their work and their lives and what it takes to, in some cases, to make history. And so on that level, I thank you very much.
Elon Musk
All right, well, thanks for having me.
Kevin Pollak
Yeah, thank you, Mr. Elon Musk. And I want to not only thank him, but my first guest, Jason Antoun. This has been a remarkable day and evening for me and for this show on many levels. And I want to take the opportunity this time, unlike the previous times, of thanking my crew because for some reason we're wrapping up all the equipment after the show. And the first thing that crosses my mind is I didn't thank everyone. So Jason Calacanis, thanks for nothing. Let's start there. Then we go over to Tyler and Crude and Jamie and Jason McIntyre and Kate Shorter and Professor Chen, I like to call him. And where's Jacob? Is he out there crawling around somewhere? You're not getting any credit. I'm not thanking you. And Gypsy Kinnear from across the country lines into Canada and Josh, who he sent here today to help out. And I want to thank all of you who are insistent on watching us live and contributed. I did not put you on the spot to play the Larry King game. I'm not sure I should let you slide. Did you contemplate that at all?
Elon Musk
I'm not 100% sure how one plays the Larry King game.
Kevin Pollak
Okay, well, I'll tell you what. I'm going to insist that you come back with a Larry King game prepared. I'm going to let you off the hook on this one because I feel like I've more than pressed my luck with your appearance here and I thank you for your time. I sincerely do.
Elon Musk
All right. You're welcome.
Kevin Pollak
Okay. So thanks to everyone involved and thank you for watching. And please join us again. My guest next week on Easter Sunday, he's called Yid Vicious, the pit bull of stand up comedy, Bobby Slayton. I got myself a funny Jew for Easter. That's what I did. I also got the star of an amazing documentary called Super High Me, a great, great talent, Mr. Doug Benson. We just lined up a few other new guests. I'm very excited. If you're a fan of the runaway hit Mad Men, the Golden Globe winning star of that show, Jon Hamm has agreed to join us. It'll either be the 19th or 26th, but on the 19th for certain, the Academy Award winning writer of the Usual Suspects. Not a bad film, so I've been told. Felicia Day, the beginning of May. Those of you who enjoy the Guild online and everything that it's becoming there beyond a lot of great other people who have said yes. And I'll be making more announcements. Thank you for all your involvement and help. Don't forget our contest. We skipped three degrees of Kevin Pollack. We'll get back to that next week. And don't forget your suggestions for the Larry King game. And thank you for all your questions. I'm sorry we didn't get to them. And I'll see you next week. Okay. Sam.