The Don Lemon Show

Welcome to the Don Lemon Show everyone. We're still here. In a minute I'm going to bring you my conversation with Elon Musk, the one that everyone is talking about. But first, let me tell you a bit about the show. Contrary to what you might have heard, we weren't canceled by X. Yes, after months of begging me, wooing me to offer some exclusive content on his platform, Elon Musk decided to scrap the deal.

But our plan is and always has been to release this show everywhere, on YouTube, on Spotify, on iHeart Radio. Just about any place you stream content. Now for my conversation with Elon. As with all my interviews, no restrictions, no ground rules, nothing off limits or out of bounds. That is until the interview ended. So what went wrong? I don't know. But my hope is that you learn something about both Elon and me.

Two people who come from completely different vantage points on almost every single issue. And I challenge you, Elon, to watch the whole interview and tell the world why this isn't what you claim you want on X. Thank you for inviting us here. You're welcome. To Tesla headquarters. I it's I'm surprised of how big it is. I've never seen it. Yeah, it's about three times the size of the Pentagon. Yeah. And we built it in 16 months.

It's the fastest construction project in the United States since uh World War II. So I'm here, you know, as you know, I'm on the platform because you are you say you're a free speech absolutist, right? No no conditions. Uh free speech is as as much as possible within the bounds of the law. Yeah. So the reason I'm saying that is because there are no conditions on this interview. You said that, you know, speak to you for an hour.

I don't like sound bites, so I welcome that. So let's get into it. So we're here in Austin, South by Southwest is going on. We're at the Tesla headquarters. You are in the process of moving SpaceX here, I understand. No. Uh so uh SpaceX has a massive uh facility in South Texas where we build and launch Starship.

And then we we have um in Bastrop near uh Austin we uh are about to start production at a Starlink uh a large Starlink factory for Starlink terminals. But it's but but we're not shutting down any facilities in California. Um listen, we are here as part of a launch of a news interview show that is going to be on x. com. Uh it's coming as a media industry as you know is going through a whole lot of changes. X is also been affected by that.

Where do you see x. com's role in the future of news and journalism, Elon? Well, I I think the I see the the X as uh it it's it's already the number one source of news uh in the world. So, it is number one the uh the number one way that people actually are informed about any kind of news, meaning real-time events, is uh on the X platform, formerly Twitter. Um There's there's nothing even close for real-time news.

So, um we also want to expand upon that. Um and we've we have done so with uh long-form content. So, instead of just doing what used to be called tweets, you can now do long-form posts. You can post an entire essay. In fact, you can now uh put an entire book post an entire book to the platform. Um you can do long-form video content. Uh so, you can do uh up to 4-hour video segments.

Um we really want news in whatever form it is, or information, I should say, in whatever form it is to be available on our platform, whether it's short, long, text, pictures, video, whatever the case may be. Yeah. And some of the stuff that we do, long-form video, interview shows, what have you. Yeah. You um you reached out over the summer and you said, "It would be great to have Maddow, Don Lemon, and others on the left put on this uh platform.

You receive full support. The digital town square is for all. What do you mean by that? Well, I just mean that we want to make sure that there are a wide variety of viewpoints. That it's uh you know, we also have, for example, Tucker Carlson who most people will view as being on the right. Um and uh you know, that's that's a quite a quite a prominent uh name on the right.

We want to have uh prominent names on the left as well uh to provide uh different views of points of view uh as well as centrists. Just basically a wide range of of viewpoints on the platform so users can uh hear different opinions. Uh you they can hear you know, what is what's your point of view, what's Sacha's point of view, and make the and you know, and people can make their own decision about what they what they believe.

You didn't mean that I'm on the left. Did you think that? were on the left, but I don't know. I'm used Well, let's just say I don't know what the left is or the right is frankly these days because things can be quite polarized, but just my impression was that you were you you you you're more likely to be described as on the left than the right. Uh I might I might sense it's you're sort of center-left. I don't know. You tell me.

Well, did you ever watch me on CNN or did you watch I saw say say Yeah, not I I saw segments. Yeah. But CNN is generally considered left. Yeah. Why do you say that? What What do I say CNN is generally considered left? Uh I think if if you if you look at any sort of media survey of what is on the left or right, I think they'd say like, for example, Fox is on the right and CNN is on the left. Yeah. So, that's what is it Am I missing something here?

Okay. Are you missing something? I I don't know. I I I think that what you would when I read that, I said like many uh of my critics or detractors, they never really watched me on CNN. they just saw the clips of me either on social media or maybe on Fox News or a conservative media where it's sort of a where I've become a character or a caricature of what I actually am and it's taken out of context. Uh sure. Well, how would you describe yourself?

Um I would describe myself as someone who is I I I am independent in my thinking and I vote for people based on the issues and how I feel about it, not necessarily because uh of political leaning of some sort. Well, I agree with that approach.

I think that's generally how how people should uh you know, take things which is that I mean there's there's there are a whole sort of set of issues which are sort of somewhat arbitrarily bucketed into right or left. Um but I think most I think most citizens uh would think that uh they're they would agree with some things on the left but not everything or they'd agree on some things on the right but not everything.

Um so uh that's that's what um I think most people feel, I guess. How much longer and then maybe maybe the answer's forever. How much longer are we going to have to call it the formerly known as Twitter? I mean, even Prince went back to Prince instead of is it always going to be X? It's definitely always going to be X. So, X is going through some changes. You said a lot um of media companies are going through some changes.

It's It You're in charge of an incredible platform, Elon. How do you feel that's going? I think it's going pretty well so far. Um we're seeing record usage. Um we've added a tremendous amount of functionality. I mentioned the that uh that you know, it used to be that you can only do short, you know, text and maybe a a picture or something like that, short video. Uh but now you can do long-form text, long-form video.

Uh we've added audio video calling. Uh so, you can not not just do text DMs, you can do audio video calling. Um we've improved the algorithm, I think, significantly. Um and um made the system faster and better and that's reflected in the increased uh usage. So, let's talk about that because you said you wanted all points of view, right? It's a digital town square for all. Yeah.

It's the the platform has kind of picked up where conservative media, some conservative media just left off. They're moving to the right, increasingly becoming part of a conservative dialogue, sometimes even conspiracy theories, right? There was an article recently written about you saying that you, Donald Trump, and X were the most important um people uh or places or whatever icons when it comes to the MAGA movement. Do you agree with that?

How do you feel about that? Uh well, I mean, there are nonsense articles written all the time, and I certainly wouldn't agree with that one. I'd put it in the nonsense category. So, uh the the the objective fact of the matter, in my opinion, was that um that old Twitter was a a fundamentally a a tool of the the far left. As far And that was really, I think, a lot of it was due to being located in San Francisco, Berkeley.

Um and so, uh it wanted to essentially project the SF Berkeley uh political dogma worldwide. Uh Do you think it was far left? Yes, I do. I I used to get I actually got off the platform because I would get so much hate tweets when it it was called in, so much hate tweets, and and just got from right-wing conspiracy theorists, being called everything from, you know, [ __ ] to Sure. Well, it's the it's the internet, you know.

The people will do the I mean, I've been called every name times a thousand. Yeah. Do you agree that it's right now, and that it's even moved into sort of MAGA land and conspiracy theory? I certainly don't think it's right. Um the the old-school Twitter uh suspended and suppressed uh accounts that you'd call on the right 10 times more than it accounts on the left.

And even when they did suspend an account on the left, uh it was because of arguments between two people on the left. Uh the political donations of old Twitter were 99% Democrat. Does that sound left right left wing or right wing to you? The Twitter donations? Yes. You know when they look at donations back from a company? If a company donates nine literally 99% of all donations are to Democrats.

Does that strike you as a left-leaning or a right-leaning company? the company donated? I understand what you're saying. What I want to tell you is that uh Twitter employees people at Twitter their political donations uh were 99% literally 99% uh to Democrats. That's obviously an extremely left-leaning group. My question to the leading into this is about MAGA. You and speaking of MAGA, you recently met with Donald Trump in Florida.

What did you guys talk about? Uh I was at a dinner with I was not at dinner. I was at a breakfast at a friend's place and Donald Trump came by. That's it. So, you didn't go there to meet him? I No, I went to a uh uh a friend of mine's a house uh and it said it said Donald Trump's coming by for breakfast. Is that uh if just so you know, like okay, fine. What did you discuss? I've I don't Um let's just say I I he did most of the talking.

What did he say? Just the the the normal things he says. There was nothing particularly ground ground ground ground breaking or new, but uh he you know uh President Trump likes to talk. And so, he talked. I don't I I don't recall him saying anything that he hasn't said publicly. Uh and that was it. It was just a breakfast. Did he ask you for money? He didn't. Did he ask you for a donation? No. He didn't. No.

You said you're not going to donate to any candidate. That's correct. Why not? I think Well, I I'll voice my opinion. Um I think uh I don't want to I don't want to put uh, a thumb on the scale monetarily. That is, you know, significant. Are you going to loan him money to help pay his bills? No. Not at all? To his legal bills? I'm not I'm not paying paying his legal bills in any way, shape, or form. And he did not ask you for money?

And he did not ask me for money. Are you going to So, you're not going to endorse a candidate? I may in the final stretch endorse a candidate, uh, but I don't know yet. Uh, I want to make a considered decision uh, before the election. Uh, and if I do decide to endorse a candidate, then I will explain exactly why. Are you leaning towards anyone? No. You're not leaning towards anyone.

You said you've been Let me say I'm leaning leaning away from Biden. You're leaning I've made no secret of that. Are you concerned about losing your security clearance clearance if Biden is reelected? Does that have anything to do with it? No. You are leaning away from Biden, but you're not going to endorse anyone. It seems like an endorsement of President Trump because there are only two people who are running now. Nikki Haley is out.

a lot could happen between now and the election. So, we'll see who in the final analysis, uh, are the choices for president. Um, and at that point, I may or may not endorse, uh, one of the candidates. If I do, I will provide a very, uh, detailed explanation of why I am endorsing one or the other. At that point, might you contribute or donate? I I I think it's unlikely.

So, you have been posting up a storm as you always do in the past couple weeks about the redesign of the Tesla, uh, Roadster coming at the end of this year. Are there any kind of updates that you can talk about that to expect from his flagship EV? I mean, Tesla stock is down the last 6 months. What's next for the company? You know, the stocks go up and down, but what really matters is are we making and delivering uh, and uh uh great products.

Uh the the Tesla products are um outstanding. Uh last year the Model Tesla Model Y was the best-selling uh car of any kind in the world. So, it was about 1. 2 million units. It was the best-selling car despite being I think around 50% more expensive than the next best-selling vehicle. Um of any kind, not just electric. So, um I think this that's testament to the incredible work of the Tesla team. Mhm. Um and uh we launched the Cybertruck.

Obviously, that's uh being put very well received. Um we have uh I think over a million orders for the Cybertruck. Um so, uh it's it's really special product. That is that is I think the Cybertruck is one of those product that products that come comes along really once in several years, maybe once a decade. It's it's a Cybertruck is a once a decade product. It is so uh special and and I think it's our best product.

Um so, But everyone improves over time. I mean, Apple you my I thought my phone was here, but Apple, you know, the phone got better over time. The I'm sure that your your cars will get better over time. You have been tweeting about the the updates in in the Roadsters. There's something that we should sure.

The You did mention the Roadsters, so um look, I don't want to give away you know, much more than what I've said uh publicly except that the Roadster will be uh a collaboration between SpaceX and Tesla. So, you know, you can expect some rockety stuff there. A flying car? Maybe. It's not out of the question. Go on. No, I I look, I got to I got to reserve the cool stuff with the, you know, when when we actually unveil it.

But it's it's it's going to it's going to be really cool. It's going to have um it's going to have some rocket technology in it. Um I think the Well, the only way to do something that's cooler than the Cybertruck is is to combine uh SpaceX and and and and Tesla technology to create something that's not even really a car. Then what would it be? Something that's never existed before. I'm getting Jetsons vibes. Only Jetsons vibes.

And and the world may not be aware like some things that I have said publicly is that it'll do 0 to 60 in under 1 second. So, um that's by far faster than any uh you know, sports car that exists. Um and um and that's not even the most exciting thing about it. Does it have wings? Ooh. No, it does it does not have big wings cuz big wings would be unwieldy on the road. Does it have propellers? It does not have propellers. Okay, it has wheels.

It does have wheels. Okay. This is not a roadster 20 questions. It has a Does it have a steering wheel? Not exactly. What is it? It will will it have it'll have a drive-by-wire uh yoke essentially like a kind of like the way aircraft are and what modern jets are controlled. And do you think it's the way of the future that everyone will follow your lead on this?

I don't think anyone will ever make anything like the uh the the roadster that that we're going to make. Let's talk now about um SpaceX, Tesla. You got a lot of lawsuits. You've got x. com. You've got a lot going on. How do you relax? Well, um I relax is I spend time with my kids, my friends, and I, you know, make somewhat of a nerd technologist so that I like playing video games. So, uh I'll play video games with with with friends online.

Uh lately I've been playing Diablo. Um and um but I've played almost all the games over the years. Uh, a long time ago I was like semi-pro good at Quake. This is really dating me. Uh, because we're talking about like 125 years ago. I don't know video games. I just know that my uh, my great nephew loves Fortnite and some other stuff. He's always with the headphones and and doing the thing. So, that helps you relax, right? So, do you Yeah.

This is and you It's the nice thing is you've got If you've got friends in different cities and they're playing the same game, you can both go online at the same time and, uh, play the game together even though you're in different cities. Listen, I'm not asking you anything that anyone else hasn't asked you about um, your controversial stuff that you tweet. You post a lot of controversial stuff. Is that considered blowing off steam?

Um, well, I guess I do enjoy using the platform. I mean, I do call, um, the X platform the the PvP or player versus player, uh, platform. Um, so, in video games there's, uh, player versus like environment, um, where you're not playing against other people. Um, and then there's PvP which is like hardcore. You're actually playing against other people. And, uh, So, but that's blowing off steam for you. Yeah. Yeah, it's It is to some degree.

Not always. I mean, obviously I use it for, uh, to post jokes, to post, uh, you know, sometimes trivia, uh, sometimes things that are great importance. So, you do a lot of it at night, like late at night. So, when you're doing this, are you are you sober when you do it? Like, almost always, yeah. the influence of anything? Uh, no. I don't I don't drink. I don't really No, I no. So, you don't No drink, no smoke, no nothing.

I mean, you smoked pot with Rogan. I had one puff. Yeah. I think anyone who smokes pot can tell I don't know how to how to smoke pot. But you've admitted that you've had you have a ketamine prescription that Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's that for? Well, I mean, it's pretty private to ask somebody about a medical prescription, you know.

Um but uh it's I think it's it's something I'd say like uh there are times when I have um a sort of uh I don't know like a negative chemical state in my in my brain. I like depression, I guess, you know, it's or or like depression that's not linked to any negative views um and and and then uh ketamine is helpful for uh getting you getting one outside out of a negative frame of mind.

Well, listen, I I I in fact I generally I'm sorry, I'm not a doctor, but I would say uh if someone has depression issues, they should consider talking to their doctor about ketamine instead of SSRIs. Listen, I I I think that um ketamine uh and drug therapy is uh increasingly becoming more in the mainstream. Yeah. Do you think that you're doing it under a doctor's care, right? Yeah, yeah.

It's literally a prescription from an actual a real doctor, not like, you know. Yeah, but do you do you feel like you ever abuse it? I don't think so. You can't use too much ketamine. You can't really get work done. That's why I have a lot of work. So, I'm I'm typically putting in like, you know, 16-hour days. That's normal for me. And it's it's it's rare for me to even take off a weekend day.

So, I don't really have like, you know, a situation where I can be not mentally acute for an extended period of time. Like, I can't I can't really get wasted with with cuz I can't get my work done. So, how often do you take it? Um well, it's it'd be like a a small amount once every other week or something like that. But there's I mean, there's not on the bottle where it says take this dose this many times a week or whatever for your depression.

My doctor said dose. I I it's there there are several weeks that'll go by where I don't use it. You don't use it. Yeah, I think it's just like I said, I think the what I find ketamine is if you if you have like literally like a chemical state in your brain that you can't you can't just think yourself out of then uh ketamine can help is helpful for getting you out of a depressive mind state.

You suffer from depression or you have a depressive mind state? And I ask you as someone who has suffered from depression. I wouldn't say that I I I wouldn't say that I have like a case of like extended depression. Um it's just once in a while I get into a a negative sort of chemical mind state once in a while. It's not a not a common thing. Um but once in a while it does happen. Where do you think that comes from?

I think it's just genetic basically. You think it's just genetic history? I think so. Um Yeah. I mean some people are just wired wired to be happy all the time. Uh some are unfortunately wired to be sad all the time. Um And in my case um you know, I'm generally pretty pretty positive and optimistic. Uh but once in a while uh I don't know what happens. It's some uh Like I said, I think it's just the chemical tides in your brain once in a while.

It's like a brain storm. Yeah. Do you ever worry that this may get in the way of your government contracts and clearances? And also and Wall Street as well. Well, from that point of Wall Street uh what matters is execution. You know, uh are you building value for investors? Um and Tesla is worth about as much as the rest of the car industry combined. From nothing. So, I don't you know, that's pretty good.

Um As I mentioned, we had we had the best selling car on Earth last year. Um So, from from investors standpoint, if there is something I'm taking, I should keep taking it. Have you you talked about your ketamine use and depression?

Have you you also have said and The reason I should I should say like the like the reason I mentioned uh the the ketamine prescription on the X platform was because I thought maybe this is something that could help other people. That's why I mentioned it. Yeah. Can we talk about the great replacement theory now? Um some of the things that you post the great replacement theory.

You claim that Democrats President Biden's immigration plan open up the border. They're the president is getting and Democrats are doing it to get more votes. Um But undocumented immigrants cannot vote in federal elections. So how is that possible? Right. Um well, you're conflating two things. What one is great replacement theory. The other one is which I I don't subscribe to that. I'm simply saying that there is a sense of here.

Uh if uh legal immigrants which I I think have a very strong bias to at least everything I've read. It's very strong bias to vote Democrat. Um the the more more that come to the country, the more they're likely to vote in that direction. But but it is in my view uh the a simple incentive to increase uh voters to Democrat voters. Um And yeah, so as you question is like how? So there's there's a few there's a a few ways that this works.

One is that uh when the census is done uh the census is based on all all people in an area whether they are citizens citizens or not. So uh there are concentration of uh people who came here legally in in a in a particular state or uh in a particular state that state will actually then get uh an increased number of house seats. So the the house seat apportionment is proportionate to the number of people not the number of citizens.

So the the the illegals overwhelmingly go to place like California and New York. Um and the if you just look at the look at the math, if if if you look at the apportionment with and without illegals, I believe California would lose I believe I believe the blue state there would be a net loss of blue states of approximately 20 seats in the house. Uh this also applies to the the electoral college.

So you say like, well, this also applies to to electing the president. Because the the the same the electoral votes are also done by by apportionment the same way that house seats are done. But the reason Elon the electoral college is in place is to to balance that. It's so that that doesn't happen. So what you're saying about it is the exact opposite of the reason why they the electoral college is there.

The electoral college at this point it at this point in in in our history gives people who are in smaller states and red states much more of an influence over our elections than people who are in blue states and the majority of the people in this country. That's what the electoral college does. It actually does the exact opposite of what you're saying. It protects people who are in smaller states and protects people who are in red states.

Well, Who The red states because they tend to be smaller and and less popular. that that that that statement is is uh what what you said is is true, but what I said is also true. Uh which is that uh if if as is the case a disproportionate number of legal immigrants go to uh blue states, they amplify the effect of a of a blue state vote. And the math as I understand it, you can research this obviously very easily.

I mean it it's like it's it's pretty straightforward to to research this. But my understanding is that there would be uh that that the the Democrats would lose approximately 20 seats in the house uh if illegals were not counted in census. And that's also 20 less electoral votes for president. So the illegals absolutely do affect the uh who controls uh the House of the House and who controls uh the presidency. It does not affect uh, the Senate.

Yeah. In blue states you're talking about. I don't believe that your information on on uh, that is right. Um, so listen let's talk more about the great replacement because the first time you did you posted on X about uh, this Jewish conspiracy you ended up apologizing. call it a a conspiracy I just said that there's a simple matter of incentives. You don't need a conspiracy when you have basic incentives.

In my view there is a basic incentive that's fundamental uh, that uh, for for the the Democrat Democrat party to foster an an ushering a large number of illegals. And they and and you don't need a conspiracy in that case because you have a very basic incentive. You could say I'm wrong about that incentive but that's my view. I I'm not buying into I don't buying some great replacement theory.

I'm simply saying there appears to be a very clear incentive for uh, uh, Democrats to have to maximize number of illegals um, because it helps them win elections. I'm talking about the great replacement theory is also part of a Jewish conspiracy theory. And when you did the tweet or you responded to the tweet about that you ended up apologizing and uh, which I think is you know, is good that you ended up apologizing.

You went to Auschwitz with Ben Shapiro. Yeah. So you said you learned your lesson. What did you learn? I said I learned my lesson. You said you learned your lesson when it when you apologized and you said you went to Auschwitz. You saw what what No, I was already already aware of of of these things.

And the nature of my comment that that really inflamed people um, what I was what I was trying to say and I did very quickly clarify this is what I'm saying is that uh, um, a number of uh, prominent uh, Jewish philanthropists fund uh, groups that they should really take a close look at funding because some of the some of the groups they fund um, I think are anti-Semitic. Yeah. Do you understand the connection between the two?

They're one there's a connection between you said Democrats and great replacement theory, but when it comes to the actual great replacement theory, originally it was started about Jewish people as you said flooding in the country. And then now people are using it for Democrats. Saying the same thing about Democrats. Flooding I might view it as a simple matter of incentives.

I I I I'm I don't I actually don't see an incentive for uh Jewish people to want to have any get legal immigration. I don't I don't think there is such an incentive. The great replacement theory is a a neo-Nazi trope. It's in the neo-Nazi manifesto. It's in the Turner Diaries. It's referenced by the Buffalo mass shooter uh in his manifesto where 10 people um black people were murdered in Buffalo.

It's actual title of the Christchurch shooter's manifesto. 51 people in the Muslim mosque were murdered. 23 people uh murdered in El Paso by a shooter who used the same language that you use in that manifesto when you say Hispanic invasion. Is that not I didn't say Hispanic invasion. And you tweeted you quoted a tweet that said that called it a Hispanic invasion. If I quote something, it doesn't mean I agree with anything everything in it.

It's just something that I want I think this is something worth people should uh consider. Why would you quote something that you didn't believe? Because anything I quote is going to have a whole range of statements. Doesn't mean I agree with everything in it.

Do you think if there if if you moderated yourself more if there was better content moderation on the platform, that you wouldn't have to answer these questions from reporters about the great great replacement theory as it relates to have to answer these questions. great replacement theory as it relates to Jewish people. Do you think that I don't have to answer questions from reporters.

Don't The only reason I've done this interview is because you're on the X platform and you asked for it. Mhm. Uh otherwise I would not do this interview. So you don't think you Do you think that you wouldn't get in trouble or you wouldn't be criticized for these things or that Possibly I could care less. It You don't You don't care. No, I don't care. Why not? I don't think people should care what the media thinks about them.

They're terrible judges of character. Even someone who has one of the biggest social media and biggest information platforms in the world, you don't think you don't care, you don't think that there's you have any x. com or you have any responsibility to the truth or moderating the platform? Well, you're conflating the truth with the with the media and I think the media is not truthful. Well, not with just the the media.

I mean, just the truth in general. I I care about truth very much. That's why we have, for example, community community notes on the X system. Um where uh in order for community note to surface and provide corrective information about what somebody posts and and my posts are equally subject to this. My I've been meaning to note it many times.

Um the in order for before community note to surface, uh people who have historically disagreed must agree in order for a community note to surface. And all of the code for community notes is open source. All of the data is open source, so you can completely recreate it from scratch. The way to build trust is transparency. I have noticed community notes. I think that you are right about that and I do think community notes are helpful.

I think any type of content moderation I do think that's helpful. You recently called content moderation though a digital chastity belt. Do you think that you you believe that X and you have some responsibility to moderate hate speech on the platform? I think we have a responsibility to adhere to the law. And we have a responsibility to be transparent about when things are shown, why they're shown. So, we that's why we open source our algorithm.

Um the I think once you start getting going beyond the law, now you're putting your thumb on the scale. And we don't want to put our thumb on the scale. It doesn't concern you that hate speech has gone Research shows that it's gone up on the platform since you took over. That's not concerning to you? I believe that is false. In fact, the research that I've seen says it it went down.

The the study from the Institute of Strategic Dialogue found that anti-Semitic tweets doubled from June 22nd to February 2023. One study reported that as many as 86% of the posts reported for April content remained up after being reported. Hate speech on the platform is up. Uh so, what what they will typically do is they'll count the number of posts, but not count the number of views.

So, what matters is was that uh post given high visibility or what the did like one person see it? Uh and if you look at the number of views of how how many how many times was his content viewed on our platform, it is down substantially. Yeah. Well, that's not what what the study shows. And you said you like transparency. I'm going to show you this in in Don, you can get a study that will tell you whatever you want.

this is these are just a handful of extremely If you look at those anti-Semitic and racist tropes and tweets, and as of this morning, they're still on X. And from your own content policy, these posts should have been deleted. So, why haven't they been deleted? Why are they still there? Do you Uh we delete things if they are illegal. But these have been up there for a while. Are they illegal?

They're not illegal, but they're hateful and they can they can lead to violence. As I just read to you, the shooters, you know, in all of these mass shootings, attributed social media to radicalizing Don, you love censorship, is what you're saying. No, I don't love censorship. Then why are you why are you asking us to in moderation, but I I don't believe in Censorship is a is a Moderation is a propaganda word for censorship.

But don't you think free speech is one thing, right? Or not, you know, not censorship. illegal, we're going to take it down. If it's not illegal, then we're putting our thumb on the scale and we're being censors. You're putting your thumb on the scale for moderating hate speech. I mean, you don't put out child pornography. That's not It's illegal. That's some people would say that's considered censorship.

I'm just saying, you No, I literally Don't you know I literally said if if something is legal, okay, we will obviously remove it. Okay. But if it is not legal, the laws in this country were are are put forward by the citizens. We're a democracy. If those laws were put in place by the by the people, we adhere to those laws. Okay, I agree with that. of of others. If you go beyond the law, you're actually going beyond the will of the people.

Okay, agreed. With the law. But if you are doing something that promotes hate and violence and ultimately leads to killing, you don't feel there's you have any responsibility not to do that? Uh When when when the people who are doing it admittedly are saying articles all the time that lead to to violence and killing. Um Don't they Shouldn't they?

Like you're applying a differential standard to But that would never that would never be in mainstream media. These types of images, that type of language, those things would never be We'd never in main When I was in mainstream media, we'd never promote things that would would be anti-Semitic. We would never promote things that would anti-Semitic, either. Did you Did you not see those? You said promote.

If content is on the platform, it doesn't mean we promote it. But that wouldn't be on a on a platform for mainstream media at all. No, but you can think of that that's mainstream media is has like whatever, 20 articles a day. Uh we have 500 million posts a day. Okay, understood. Does it bother you? How do you feel about that when you see it? I obviously disagree with that. I think it's not it's not good at all. Terrible.

But you don't want to get rid of it on the platform or at least moderate it. The laws that You're you're What what you're suggesting is censorship that goes beyond the law. And what I'm saying is I that we're I guess have a disagreement because I do not believe in censorship that goes beyond the law and you do. We have difference of opinion in that regard. I understand that, but these are your own rules on your own platform.

This these go against the the rules on your platform. That's why I'm asking you. If you had if you said, "Listen, we allow everything." But that's not what your content rules say. And that's why I'm asking you, why are they still there? The Your own content policy. That's why I'm asking you that, not Which part of our content policy says that we have we should delete these these these things? Your content policy talks about hate speech.

Yes, we don't promote hate speech hate speech. And so you don't consider that hate speech? I guess you're not understanding what I'm saying. This this this if if if there's you can find like you can sign up right now and and and do a hundred things that are hateful. Um but if nobody reads it, it doesn't matter. So, You you you can think of X as being it's much like the internet.

It's not some ti- it's some tiny publication with like 20 articles today. It's 500 million But everyone has the opportunity to read it, Elon. I think you don't have the opportunity to read the internet. Are you saying that you're suggesting we should shut down the internet? No, but but you don't own the internet. I'm asking you about you and your responsibility on your platform. And I I so I see how you feel now. You don't agree.

We don't agree on this. Yes, you want censorship and I don't. No, I don't want censorship at all. You do. No, I want responsibility. I think there's I think there You desperately want censorship. No, if I want to censorship so bad you can taste it. No, that's not true. It's not true. I think that there's right and wrong. And I think that you want censorship.

And I and I think that when you have a platform that's as big as yours and as powerful as yours and as influential as yours and you are a person who of consequence to the world with what you do, that there is a certain responsibility that goes along with what you have on your platform and what you put out to the world. And I I think that's important. You don't see that responsibility.

Um I think the we have a responsibility to uh adhere to the law. Um and if people want the law changed, they should talk to the elector talk to their elected representative and get the law changed and then we will adhere to the law. Okay. But if you want us to go beyond the law, that is that is us deciding to be censors. So And I'm against censorship. I'm I'm in favor of freedom of speech. Yeah.

And freedom of speech only is relevant when people you don't like say things you don't like. Otherwise, it has no meaning. But I I do think that there are there should be guardrails. And I believe in free speech as much as you. I would fight I don't I don't disagree. I don't agree with um a lot of what you put out on social media, but I will fight for your right to be able to say it. Great. Yeah. Okay.

So, listen, let's talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, all right? That's been a target of yours lately on X. You uh on There was a repost of Ben Shapiro that you claim that DEI is killing people. Specifically, you point to medicine. You claim that DEI programs are putting people at a risk. Do you really believe this to be true? And what evidence do you have to support it?

Um what I was referring to there was that if uh if we lower the standards for doctors, uh such so that they you know, you if if the test for a doctor is lowered, uh that then the probability of them making a mistake and killing someone is obviously going to be higher. Wait, say that again. I am not sure I understand what you said. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

I should Yes, if if these if the standards for passing medical exams and becoming a doctor or or especially if it's something like a surgeon, if the standards are lowered, uh uh then the probability that the surgeon will make a mistake is higher. They're making mistakes in their exam, they they may make mistakes with people, and that may result in people dying. What evidence do you have though that they're lowering the standards?

There's no evidence of that. I believe there is. There's no evidence of that, Elon. What what is the evidence? I believe they have literally lowered the standards at at Duke University, and that is what the article is referring to. There's no evidence There's no evidence There's no evidence about lowering standards, and I think that there is I believe that is a false statement you're making. Okay, well, we'll we'll figure it out. Yeah.

I think the interesting thing is when this is posted on the next platform, there will be a whole bunch of things that rebut what you said and what what I said, and so people can then make their own decision based on the replies, the rebuttals, and the community notes.

I think that's fair, but I do think that on this particular topic, I do think that you and Ben Shapiro are reaching in about this because there was a what What Ben posted said that people were He gave instances of people who were deliberately harming people. Nowhere in the thread does Ben suggest at all, I should say, that anyone is being killed as a a result of DEI. Um that's purely speculative.

There's research on DEI and medicine, and there's no evidence that standards are being lowered, that DEI's affecting medicine. Actually, like only 5% of doctors are black, and a small percent Yeah, I think you'll find that when this is posted to the X platform, that people will reply to it with evidence. Maybe I'm wrong, let's see. Okay. So, but That's my whole thing about moderation. Maybe you're wrong, but you'll put it out there.

You don't know if it's right. Do you think that you have a responsibility to make sure something is right before you, the person who owns it, Elon Musk, who is a huge figure in the world, that you should know that it's true, that some of there are people that X who can get research for you before you put something out there like that. That's not necessarily true, even in other examples.

Um if I say something that uh is inaccurate, I'm immediately corrected on the platform. That's the advantage of real-time uh system like X. So, there'll be immediately in the replies correct people correcting me. There'll be community note that will correct me, um which is attached to the actual post itself. as many people will read the Yes. Do you think as many people read that as it reads your tweet?

Yes, in fact and if if there's a community note that happens uh later that where somebody didn't see, but they replied to that uh or interacted with that post, we will notify them that there's now a community note correcting that post. Mhm. Just so you Whereas if you consider the conventional media, that doesn't happen. Conventional media makes false statements all the time with no and nobody ever hears the correction.

When I was in conventional media, I can only speak for myself. If I got something wrong, if someone got something wrong on the platform that that I was on, it was corrected and we made sure that it was corrected. Now, I can't speak for anyone else. That's I think I don't think that's a universal situation. Okay.

So, I just want just the research that you're talking Do you believe that people are dying because medical standards DEI is causing medical standards to be lowered? Do you actually believe people are dying because of that? I I believe that it uh if if we if we lower the standards for what it takes to become a doctor You're saying if we lower the standards, but do you believe people are dying because the standards are being lowered?

I I don't I have to ask that is yes an issue, but it could become an issue. Okay. But the actual evidence and history shows the exact opposite if you look at how minorities were treated by the medical system. Oh, most doctors most doctors now are white. And there are lots of mistakes in medicine. So, you're saying that my doctors are have bad medical care?

I'm trying to understand your logic here when it comes to DEI because there's no actual evidence of what you're saying. No, I I said So, if the standards like if like let's say uh I think that particular thing was referring to surgeons. Let's say a surgeon is is asked to a a surgeon in training is asked to do a a series of operations under the supervision of a senior surgeon, and they get a bunch of those operations wrong.

If if if if that happens, and yet they are still approved to be a surgeon, the probability that someone will die, I think, at some point is high. Okay, I understand that, but that's a hypothetical. That doesn't mean it's happening. I didn't say it was I it's happening. You You didn't say it was happening. I said I said it will. You I said if if if if we lower standards, people will people will die.

But why respond to something or put something out there that has not happened? Because I could say, you know Because I don't want it to happen. I think we don't want to lower standards. Okay, if you look at the history of the medical industry, um especially when it comes to black Americans, it shows us the exact opposite. If you look at the Tuskegee experiment and all of that, only 5% of doctors are in America are black. All of them are white.

So, are you saying that if the majority of doctors are white, are you saying that D and there are still these inequities, right? And there is and people still there's still mistakes, are you blaming DEI for that?

No, I'm I'm very very basically saying that if we lower standards uh for what it takes to become uh a board certified surgeon uh or you know, oncologist or something where that are where the the kind of disease we're talking about, if you make a mistake, causes someone to die, then there more people will die than if we don't lower the standards. Therefore, we should not lower the standards.

do you think they're lowering the standards for minority doctors or women doctors or That's what the the article That's what that article suggested, yes. At the At Duke University. Okay. The evidence that I have shows that that's not true. So, listen, after the door blew off this mid-flight in this Alaskan Airlines flight, do you remember that?

You responded a post claiming that the average HBCU grad was less intelligent than the average airline pilot and stated that it will take an airline crashing, an airplane crashing and killing hundreds of people for them to change this crazy policy of DIE. I don't know if you Did you misspell it on purpose? Which should be DEI. Do you believe that women and minority pilots are inherently less intelligent and less skilled than white male pilots?

No, I'm just saying that we should not lower the standards for them. Okay. But there's no evidence that standards are being lowered when it comes to the airline industry. You've repeatedly said that there's no evidence that standards are being lowered and watch the replies showing all the evidence that it is. Replies though on social media or on Twitter are not necessarily fact and evidence. That's people's opinions. cite.

Okay, all the The replies In the replies to this you will see how often the this the information cited showing that indeed there are significant cases where standards are lowered. And I do hope that happens. I do hope that happens and and I look forward to it. As you said, if you're wrong, then you're wrong and if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Okay, so let's So, I'm glad we're having this conversation and debate.

This is what you should we should be doing, debating the issue. So, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong and then they'll be proven in the thing and you as well. But I just want to tell you that that pilot that you talked about in fact was a woman pilot, landed the plane safe safely despite the major found malfunction with the equipment. Boeing has taken responsibility for that incident saying that it was caused by a faulty door panel.

So, I'm not sure what that had to do with lowering the standards for pilots when it was a faulty lowering standards for pilots. It's It's the the incentive structure I I believe at Boeing changed to uh, include DEI as uh, as as a fundamental executive incentive. Um, so but I In my view, it should be purely about passenger safety.

Okay, but do you understand how by saying just that standards are being lowered and that you're implying that they're being lowered because people are less skilled and less intelligent and you're talking about people of color and or women? Uh, I Look, I'm I'm saying we should not lower standards. But do you you don't That's it. I think everyone can agree that you can't you shouldn't lower standards.

Great, that's what But you're implying that they're lowering standards because of people of color or women because someone is not a white male. You're saying that they're less skilled and less intelligent. That's what you're saying. not saying that. I'm simply saying that they are Then why would they be lowering the standards? I don't know. Why are they lowering the standards? Just so you know, 5% of pilots are female, 4% are black.

So you're you know, you're talking about this widespread takeover of minorities and women when that's not actually true. I'm not saying there's a widespread takeover. Well, you're saying that the standards are being lowered because of certain people. Um, and you how do you you don't believe in DEI, right? Do you not believe in diversity, equity, and inclusion?

I think we should be uh, treat people uh, according to their skills uh, and their integrity and that's it. Do you know that studies show Studies show? Yeah. Well, we can look them up. What So, your reaction to studies show and I understand, right? Because I always like to say I always like to point to an exact uh, study, right? Something that is factual.

It's the same thing when you talk about, well, let's see what the replies are on Twitter or on X. Yes, those aren't data. I so I feel the same I feel the same way about that. But this is what studies have shown and people will reply and they'll say that companies with more diversity in and leadership teams have reported higher innovation, race and those in with a lower with lower diversity or low diversity.

And they're better companies and they make more money. This whole idea about DEI, if you go woke or whatever, you go broke, that's not necessarily true. People with diverse leadership teams and diverse workers make more money and more innovative. Um like I said, my view is that the only basis for promoting somebody should be their skills, talents, and uh their integrity, and that's it.

I want to ask you about there's a there's a federal government EEOC is they are also currently involved in a lawsuit against Tesla that alleges that there's a history of widespread racial harassment against black Tesla employees as well as a pattern of retaliation for speaking out. What do you say to that? Uh well, there's I don't believe that is that is true.

Um I think we've got a very good uh Like if if you walk around the the the Tesla Fremont plant, I think it's a very good atmosphere. Um in fact, I I practically lived there for 3 years trying to make the production work. Were you aware if you live there Were you aware of such behavior? I never saw it. So, you're saying that this is not true, it's not happening? Well, I mean, there's over 20,000 people.

So, you say like if there's over 20,000 people in one building, well, is everyone going to be behave properly? No. Did I see any any situations that I thought were improper? I did not. Uh let's talk about trans rights and the the woke mind virus cuz you talk about that a lot. You write about that a lot on the thing. You have been deeply outspoken about the issue of trans rights.

You posted trans rights you posted that pronouns in bio mean the woke mind virus ate your brain. Do you know what the term woke actually means? Um it's come to mean a lot of things. But what it actually what originally it was meant to mean is just being aware of inequities in society and and being aware of facts and and history. Yeah, I think it's come to be I think I think being aware of inequities in society is fine, of course.

Um but uh trying to blame everything uh on on trying to make everything a race issue is uh I think a divisive and corrosive to society. Even as it relates to trans issues, which is what I'm Yeah, great race or, you know, gender or whatever. You think blaming you think that society blames everything on racism now? It blames a lot of things on it and uh Yeah. You think that's unfair? Yeah. Why?

I think I think we should we should we should we should we should uh not not make this a constant uh subject. I mean, it it needs to move on. I think we should just, you know, um treat people like people. You don't agree that there's this country was founded on racism and founded on slavery and and in many ways inequities. Um that still continue on to this day.

I think every country uh at at that time and I think even today uh was extremely racist. Um every country um and um obviously a lot uh slavery was present in uh about half this country. Um and not but not was not present in the in the uh north. Uh there was racism for sure. Uh but uh you know, the I I think we we we we want to look to the future rather than the past.

Um and uh instead of engaging in a constant rehashing of the past because in fact if you look at history if you study history broadly everyone was a slave everyone. Yes well not everyone was a slave not everyone was a slave. Okay but We all we all we all all descended from slaves. Yeah well all of us. Yeah it's just a question of when is it was it more recent or less recent that's it right.

Um so the But what what future do we want do we want is this something we want to make part of our constant dialogue forever or do we do we want to say like let's just move on and treat everyone uh you know uh according to just who they are as an individual. I agree with you with that that's the ideal. But what the evidence shows is that that's not what's actually in practice. I think we're doing better than anywhere else. That's true.

I agree with that but that doesn't mean anything that doesn't mean a lot to a whole lot of people who aren't able to take advantage of the opportunities that you were able to take advantage of simply because of the color of your skin. What what advantage what what advantage does my color of my skin give me? Well there's a certain there's an ease that you have in society that you that many people of color don't.

You were able to come to this country voluntarily there are many people who were not able to come to the country voluntarily there are people who came here as a slave. to come here. And there is a legacy of slavery that still continues on there's a legacy of racism that still continues on in this country that's and that's undeniable. Well if if if we keep talking about it non-stop it will never go away.

If we keep making that the central thing it will never go away. Well why do you believe that? I think I'm speaking a simple statement of fact. Um so I think I think we want to get away from making everything a race or a gender or whatever issue. Just treat people like individuals. Do you have any desire to understand what many people of color and even trans people, um, how they feel about this country and how they're treated in this country.

If they if they say and they believe that they are treated a certain way in this country, why don't you believe them? You you can't have a situation where where someone is is a self-described victim and and that you and they just get to be that because that's how they feel. I think that that does happen in some cases, but not all cases. And I think that not understanding the history of the country, I think is, um, is a a real shame.

Look, I've had an incredible opportunity and other countries. I've had incredible opportunities as a person of color. Right, but I've also been discriminated against and I know that I have. And I know that that's real. And for someone to say that that isn't happening and I should not I should just move forward and not think about that and ignore the past is insulting. I'm not saying it Don, you keep putting words in my mouth.

I'm not saying it I didn't say that you said it. I'm saying that we want to we we as a we as a country should move beyond questions of of race and gender and we should treat people like individuals and and base our opinions on them on the you know, uh, their their, uh, their their their character and their skills. I don't think that anyone will disagree with that. Exactly.

All I'm saying is that that's not happening and it's not equal for everyone. That those opportunities don't happen for everyone and I am a living example that they don't. I know that they don't because I live it. You've been incredibly successful. I have been and in spite of it all, but I but I am I know what I know. I've experienced what I've experienced.

You haven't done that and I cannot, um, I don't know what it's like to be from South Africa. I don't know what it's like to be a white man. I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I don't know what it's like to be a Latino person. I don't know that, so I wouldn't speak for them and just say, "You need to move on." That's not for me to say. I Maybe I believe that the country it would be great if the country could live up to that ideal.

You think that everyone has the same opportunities in America regardless of their background and ethnicity? Do you agree you No, I don't think everyone has the same opportunities. Okay. So, um when you talk about Let's talk about trans rights. When you decided to um to talk about the the trans rights movement, um you said that it was a woke mind virus. Why do you believe the trans rights movement is a woke mind virus?

What do you mean by woke mind virus? Woke mind virus is um when you you stop caring about uh people's skills um and their integrity and you start focusing instead on gender and race and other things that are different from that. Um I think uh the woke mind virus is fundamentally racist, fundamentally sexist, and fundamentally evil. Okay. And we've got a little bit more time, so you choose your questions carefully.

Okay, so Okay, thank you for that, but I I would appreciate you answering these. I think it's important that we're doing this. I think it's important to the to world the world to hear this especially what's going on in our country. Uh the reason I ask you Listen, there are a whole lot of things that people may be uh have questions about when it comes to transgender people.

Even people who are part of the LGBTQ plus community have have questions about that. But if you are a free speech absolutist, right? Um and that is part of the First Amendment. Also, the freedom of expression falls under that First Amendment as well. So, why can't people choose to identify with the gender that they feel comfortable with or with a use a pronoun. Isn't that part of freedom of expression?

Uh I guess though that they can they can ask others to whatever they feel they can they can ask others to do anything. What it it's a difficult question whether they whether they mandate that others do it. Okay. Okay. Let's Let's talk a little more about free speech and for advertisers, right? Because all this controversy, I believe as you know, has made X less appealing to advertisers. About half of them have left the platform.

You called advertisers that left x. com. You said they were oppressors. You've even gone as far as saying it publicly that they can go F themselves or go [ __ ] themselves. Advertisers if they're if they're going to force censorship on the on the company before advertising, then uh obviously I find that unacceptable. You find it unacceptable. Why is that not a form of of free speech? They are free to advertise where they want.

They're not beholden to They're not obligated to advertise obligated to x. com. Right. So, how is that not free speech? They They That's whereas the other platforms will censor on behalf of of advertisers, the X platform will not. Okay. So, but you think it's You don't think it's okay for them not to advertise with or have their content or their advertisement next to something that is anti-Semitic or That is a different question.

Uh You We We There's There's You can absolutely choose where next to which content do you want to have advertising to appear. Absolutely, of course. And we do We have, I think, very good ad placement controls in this regard. Yeah. So, you said if they kill the company, it's them. But doesn't the buck stop with you? I mean, you're on it. I have to say I Choose your question carefully. There's 5 minutes left.

Okay, but so Is this the question you want to ask? The same question is you said you said that they are killing the company, but you're the head of the company. The buck stops with you. I acquired X in order to preserve freedom of speech in America, the First Amendment. And I'm going to stick to that. And if that means making less money, so be it. So I have to be Listen, I I'm just being honest, right? I'm not trying to like get you or anything.

I was just surprised that you would blame other people for killing the company. I mean, but you're the I mean, when you say the buck stops with the president of the United States regardless of what happens, right? So I Why would this Why would that question upset You seem upset by it. Are you? I think you're And I'm not trying to upset you. Well, you are upsetting me because the way you're phrasing questions, I think is is not cogent.

Um It's not what? Not cogent. Cogent? Yes. Go ahead. Uh so the if if if if given a choice where an advertiser is saying like you have to censor all this content on the platform irrespective of where their advertising appears, uh then our answer will be like, "Look, you you you can choose where you want your advertising what you want your advertising to appear next to. You can't insist on censorship of the entire platform.

If you insist on censorship of the entire platform even where your advertising doesn't appear, uh then uh obviously we won't we will not uh want them as an advertiser." So what what would you say to advertisers too who have left the platform or who are considering coming back or not coming back? What would you like to say to them? Well, first of all, uh almost all of our advertisers are coming back to the platform.

So it's a very short list of advertisers who are not coming back to the platform. Um and uh our advertising revenue is rising rapidly. Uh and our subscription revenue is rising rapidly and I feel very optimistic about the future of the X platform. Okay. Listen, I'm not I'm honestly, I'm not meaning to offend you. You're an intense person. Where does that intensity come from? I was born that way. And I had a tough childhood. You did? So, yeah.

How so? All right. Walter Isaacson goes into it in the book and and we only have a couple minutes left. So, All right. Too long to to describe. Uh So, the one or two questions I can do and then we'll have to call it. I Okay. Again, I don't mean to upset you. Why are you You just No, I have a whole room full of people waiting to meet with me. Okay. So, we're just going to go over time. Okay. All right. I understand that.

Um so, you when you talk about you said you were born that way. Is that um Did you think that the way that you see the world has to do with your relationship with anyone? Perhaps your your father or someone in in your family? I think we're all affected by the people we we grow up with. My aspiration is to do whatever it takes to extend the extend consciousness into the future. That's my goal.

Um to make life multi-planetary as part of extending conscious consciousness into the future. Has this has Have the past few years and considering everything that's gone on, has it been difficult for you and your family life? It's been okay. So, then how do you see your legacy?

Elon, how How do you see How people see you in the First of all, I say that the Um if I died knowing that I that I did what was right or or did my best to do what was right, and even if in the history books they said I did did wrong, I would still feel okay about that. I care about the reality of goodness, not the perception of it. Um I think we should view civilization as tenuous, as fragile.

Um if you if you do study history broadly, you'll see that there's a rising pool of civilizations that don't always go up. Um so we should do everything we possibly can to preserve and and extend civilization as we know it and improve it. Um become more enlightened over time. And we uh therefore want to address civilizational risks.

Uh we want to make sure that uh we don't have for example demographic collapse which is the case in a lot of countries. Uh just very low birth rate. Um we we want to avoid obviously avoid World War anything that is a civilizational risk. That's what I care about, civilizational risks. Um how do we extend consciousness into the future such that we are able to better understand the the nature of reality. That's what I care about.

That's my motivation. you have to go. If you'll just give me a I'll do a rapid fire thing here. Is if there is there anything that you would change about um anything that you've done in your life in the past or recently? Um I've made many mistakes over the years. If I had a time machine I'd go back and fix them. Uh but I don't have a time machine. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. So that's it.

And as Elon would say you be the judge. Let me tell you something about this show. The conversation doesn't end just because the camera stops. We'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching the Don Lemon show. Click on the image in the top right to subscribe to my channel and the thumbnail in the bottom right to watch more content from my show. I'll see you next time.