World Artificial Intelligence Conference

at Tesla and Jack Ma the co-chair of the UN high-level panel on digital cooperation this gave them a very big applaud welcome great to have both of you here with us today the session is actually much awaited we've already posted some of the key words of the questions on the big screen and later on you can just click the words you're interested in to talk about now the stage is yours what are you supposed to say just things about AI perhaps okay let's see yeah okay great yeah yeah actually I'm told that this AI mean love it looks like a name yeah I I hate the word AI called artificial intelligence I call it Alibaba intelligence yeah might might end up being true you know I think generally people underestimate the the capability of AI they sort of think

like it's a smart human but it's it's really much it's gonna be much more than that it'll be much smarter than the smartest human maybe like you know if like can a chimpanzee really understand humans not really you know they're just we just seem like strange aliens well they mostly just care about other chimpanzees and this will be how it is more or less in a relative into impact if it's if the difference is only that small that would be amazing it probably it's much much greater so like the biggest mistake that I see artificial intelligence researchers making is assuming that they're intelligent yeah they're not compared to AI and so they cannot of them cannot imagine something smarter than themselves but AI will be vastly smarter vastly so what do you

do with the situation like that what do you do with situation like that I'm not sure you know hope I hope they're nice I mean I have obviously some you know I think in a situation where you if you you know that old saying if you can't if you can't beat them join them you know that's what neuro-link is about is like can we go be able to go along for the ride with a I I mean I really think that there should be other companies like neuro-link essentially to create a high bandwidth interface to the brain because the right right now we are already a cyborg people don't realize we're already a sidewalk because we are so well integrated with our phones and our computers the phone is almost like an extension of yourself if you forget your phone it's like a missing

limb but the bandwidth the communication bandwidth to the phone is very low especially input so in fact input bandwidth to computers has actually gone down because of typing with two thumbs as opposed to 10 fingers is a big reduction in bandwidth input bandwidth has gone up because of video and an imagery so input bandwidth as many orders of magnitude greater than output bandwidth that at a certain points if we'll just assume assuming a benign scenario with a I we will just be too slow you know it's like if a millisecond to something let's say a computer that has like an exaflop of or you know many extra flops of computer capability a millisecond is an eternity and to us it's nothing so you know I think I would say like human speech to a computer will

sound like very slow tonal wheezing there's kind of like whale sounds yeah you know because what's our bandwidth like a few hundred bits per second basically maybe a few kilobits per second if you're gonna be generous so whereas a computer can easily communicate at a terabyte level so the computer will just get impatient if nothing else it would be like talking to a tree that's humans yeah and I'm not a great note barely getting any information out basically with speech yeah I'm always amazed by what your vision about the technology I'm not a tech guy I think I'm all about life I think AI is going to open a new chapter of the Society of the world that people try to understand ourselves better rather than the outside world and it's so difficult to predict

the future 99.

99% of the predictions the human being had in history about the future all wrong including that one oh yeah only you know the the zero point zero zero percent of the prediction are right there right because by accident yeah but it's also true that 80% of statistics are false yeah so my meaning Lauren come on guys buddy I'm happy about the artificial intelligence or alibaba intelligence that's going to understand a human the inside of the human better so when people worry a lot about artificial intelligence people should have more confidence in themselves because I think if that lot of solutions we don't have today but there will be solutions tomorrow we don't have solutions for the young people we have solutions so I'm quite optimistic and I don't think

artificial intelligence is a threat I don't think if fish intelligent is something terrible but human being a smart enough to learn that and to me artificial intelligence is just like people worry a lot about this today are those people I called them called called college smartness people like us street smart we never scared of that we think it's a great fun and we want to change our self to embrace it I don't know man that's like famous last words this is let me tell you AI is I mean you know it's sort of the rate of advancement just in general the rate of investment of computers is insane and like a good example would be video games you know if you go back 40 40 years ago or 50 years ago maybe yet you had pong that was just two rectangles and a square

now you've got photorealistic real-time simulations with millions of people playing simultaneously if you assume any rate of improvement at all the I mean these games will be complete indistinguishable from reality you will not be able to tell the difference either that or civilization will end those are the two options but even if the rate of technology improvements slowed down by a thousand then okay advance a thousand years you know ten thousand years this is still very tiny I mean civilization civilization has been around for probably you know arguably I think 7000 years or something like that if you counted from the first time there was any any writing any recorded symbols besides cave paintings there's a very tiny amount of time considering the

universe is 13.

8 billion years old I mean if civilization lasted for a million years we would would only increment the third decimal point after 13.

8 billion years if we lasted for a million years so I know that seems like a long time given that we've only been around for seven thousand years and it's been pretty it's been kind of a roller coaster on the civilization front so I mean I'm not trying to be I'm a naturally optimistic person to be clear I'm not saying hey doom and gloom I'm just saying the these this is the apparent pattern the the rate of change of Technology is incredibly fast it is outpacing our ability to understand it well I'm not sure is that good or bad I don't know okay I mean it seems to me some time ago that you could sort of think of humanity as a biological bootloader for digital super intelligence if you're those in order bootloader is a very tiny piece of code without which

the the computer cannot start but it's sort of like the minimal bit of code necessary for a computer to start like you couldn't evolve silicon circuits you knew they needed to be a biology to get there good yeah well let's talk about something fun I am Adam I'd that you want to go on the Mars so we go to the the Mars yeah yes so what will the life look like on Mars are you both moving what do you think about that I actually I'm not interesting on Mars I just came back from there so haha I'm more interesting on the earth that thinks what's going on happening here so what why you're so curious about the Mars well I think the thing about Mars is that I think it's important for us to take the set of actions that are most likely to continue consciousness into

the future what increases the probability of consciousness of continuing into the future I think we should not take it for granted that consciousness will continue because we have not encountered any aliens where are the aliens this is the Fermi paradox this is one of the most important questions how come we've not found any aliens those people out there think we've got a lian's trust me I would know we have not okay people ask me you've been to area 51 okay please SpaceX actually has area 59 it's even better eight better than 51 so I'm among the set of actions we can take that are likely to increase the scope and scale of consciousness such that we are better able to understand the nature of the universe one of those actions is to become a multi-planet

species or ensure that life is multiplanetary not because I think something but it's not it not from from the standpoint of it just being an escape hatch or because I think that earth is doomed but there's a certain probability that is irreducible that something may happen to earth despite our best intentions despite everything we try to do the there's a probability at a certain point that some either external force or some internal unforced error causes civilization to be destroyed or source poor sufficiently impaired such that it can no longer extend to another planet it's hard to say it like that like never put another way this is the first time in the four-and-a-half billion year history of Earth that it's been possible to extend life beyond Earth

before this it was not possible how long will this window be open it may be open for a long time or it may be open for a short time I think we should it would be wise to assume that it is open for a short time and and and then let us secure the future secure the future of consciousness such that life of the lights of consciousness is not extinguished and we should you try to do this as quickly as possible that's my view good it's so difficult to secure the future of the earth but we can secure the future of next 100 years I am not the person that I admire your courage for explore the Mars but I admire a lot of people spend efforts on improving the earth it's it's great to send a woman and people to the Mars but we have to care about the seven point four

billion people on the earth how can we make the world's most sustainable and I'm not that fan of the Mars because I think it's easy to go to the Mars when you go on the top of the hills all the out of the building just a one step you go to Mars but you will never be able to come back yeah that's my team that works there and so I hate to go to the Himalayas - I mean when you climb on them I think someday I will go there when the elevator is ready I would go to have a look but I think people spending more time on the earth think about 1/2 because no matter how long the civilization of the human beings would be like one minute or two million or have many years but we only have 100 years so we cannot solve all the problems for future but we have to be responsible

for the future but we should care more about how we can enjoy better my view is that by the artificial intelligence or AI when human being understand ourselves better then we can improve the water better last 200 years human being tried to understand the other side war better understand the other people better but I think what I feel excited about a ai is AI is to understand people the inside of the human beings the earth I heard you you're gonna dig eternal in deep in the earth which is amazing I think anyhow every time when I read the news about you are interesting the outside space I look at you it's a great respect we need a heroes like a you but we need more heroes like us working hard on the earth improving things every day that's what I want sure

I mean to be clear I'm very Provos it sounds great weekly are very Pro Earth when I say you know us becoming a multi-planet species or making life multi expanding the scope and scale of consciousness from a resource standpoint I'm talking about less than 1% of Earth's resources should be dedicated to making life multiplanetary Oh making consciousness multiplanetary so you know I think it should be like somewhere in between how much we spend on lipstick and how much we spend on health care like you know things like for the preservation of consciousness we should spend maybe slightly more than we spend on on cosmetics that's my you know and I'm Pro cosmetics I like that great but but you know this probably worth spending I don't know some like at least

half a percent of Earth GDP on extending life to be multiplanetary maybe 1% I'd say seems like a good a good use of resources and but in 98 you know we have like towards magnitude more resources spent on earth so it's not like it's you know somehow gonna fundamentally impair earth if likes are just 1% of both resources on that order should be enough to make life multiplanetary seems like a wise investment for the future and obviously I spend a lot of my time on sustainable energy with Tesla with you know electric cars and solar and batteries and that kind of thing and I'm really excited to be here in Shanghai for the the Shanghai Giga factory which is I think that Tesla China team has done an amazing job really mind-blowing like I've just astounded by

how good the job is and how much progress has been made and I think it's a good story for the world and to say like look look how much progress you can make in China this is extremely impressive like my hat is off you know you guys Rock so I've never seen anything but so fast in my life before to be totally Frank I've seen some crazy things so you know I think it's like I really think China is the future well that's very impressive and there's also some great progress on entrepreneurial rocket companies in China as well I believe to have made orbit it was very difficult very hard to make orbit achieving orbit I have great respect very hard yeah pick up another topic sure yeah job jobs jobs or life jobs sure anything sure so what new jobs will be created

because of AI or has the change already stated what do you think I think why we needed that many jobs hahaha right my view is that the jobs actually every technology revolution people start to worry right last 200 years we worry about the new technology gonna take away all the jobs actually we made a lot of jobs second because of the Industrial Revolution job create a lot of jobs what I think is the next 20 30 years human being will live much longer the live science technology is gonna make people live probably a hundred a hundred twenty years that may not be a good thing because you get a grandfather's grandfather still working hard but the challenge is my question why should we have a lot of jobs I think people should work three days a week four hours

a day when we have electricity the power of electricity is that we make people more time so you can go to the collar ok in the evening you can go to dancing party in the evening so people because of electricity people have more time I think because of artificial intelligence people will have more time enjoy being human beings in your life in my life I think I visit the problems 300 cities in my life my graph my father visited 30 cities my grandfather will visit only three cities so my grandchildren profit probably will visit the three thousand cities always alive he's always on the Tesla is always on the robots always traveling around so I don't think we need a lot of jobs at that time the jobs we need is make people happier make people is the life enjoy

the human beings so I don't worry about the job jobs a lot first we're gonna have love jobs second we don't need a lot of jobs third there's a very interesting thing which because we will probably talk about life in the agriculture period average age is like a 3035 years old in the industry period technology revolution people can live 70 years so in the artificial intelligent period people can live a hundred to the years as I think now the problem comes when people's life is getting better people don't want to have children where a grand grandfather is there you don't want have a children at that time we are going to have a lot of jobs with nobody want to do it so we need artificial intelligence the robots to take care of the old guys for sure you will

not be happy or you were happy because when your grand grandfather said all I need to work tomorrow then that's a disaster so I think we cannot predict the future but we should be ready that we are going to enter into the area that everybody can live 120 years and we have a new more new problems that come up so that's my view about jobs don't worry about it well you will have jobs yeah I I think the yeah over time a I will make jobs kind of work pointless probably the last job that will remain will be doing writing AI software and then eventually the AI will just write its own software so I don't know I suppose I would recommend studying engineering physics that kind of thing or working on something where people just want to interact with other people

and people enjoy fundamentally interacting with other people so if you're working on something that involves people or engineering it's probably a good approach you know art of course yeah like I said I think we're gonna have to figure out this neural link situation otherwise we will be left behind it's very important we do this quickly I think time we don't have much time we don't have much time before what we don't have much time to solve the neural link yeah yeah yeah anything like technology like technology and technology awareness there's like it's like if it was like a topological map of technology awareness it's mostly flat with a few short buildings and then some very tall spires very tall spires and unless you're on that very tall spire it's

not obvious what the topology is yeah I never worry about the things that I cannot solve I left other people to solve it if nobody can solve it just let it be that's my life oh let's talk about education I'm of quite an interesting about education can we yeah so what knowledge or skills will be useful to master the future do you have any vice for young professionals who want to pursue a career in AI young professionals I don't think we will have professionals on AI in the future well I worry a lot about people worried about jobs but I worry about education all the education systems the things we teach our kids the way we teach our kids are mainly designed for the industry period and I'm sure the Machine will be much cleverer than human beings in the future

how can human being do better human beings shall be smarter human be shall be wiser so how can we be human beings to be wiser a smarter I think that we should change the way of Education change the things because in the in the past we focus a lot about you know remember things computer can remember better than you are we want to calculate the faster computer can rep can calculus faster we want to run faster computer can run much faster than you are so human beings should have confidence by being more creative more constructive so how can we teach our kids to be more creative and constructive and I think this is the key of the education and I want spend more time on training kids or arts on painting on seeing on dancing you know all these are the creative

things that make people live like a humans don't worry about machines for sure we should understand one thing that men can never make another men computer is a computer computer is just a toy man cannot even make a mosquito so we should have a confidence computer only have chips men have the heart it's the heart where the wisdom comes from so I think in the next 10 or 20 years human beings or every country every government should focus on reform the education system making sure our kids be able to find jobs in the future being able to live in a life that only working three days a week four hours a day and that is very important if we do not change the education system that we are in we are all in going to being trouble that's my view and don't worry about

it we will change it yeah yeah try learn as much as much as possible that allows you to predict the future or make the future say the thing is the best way to predict the future is to make it just and then assess whether what you are learning is enabling you to predict the future with less error are you less wrong we're all always wrong to some degree but can you reduce the error on your future predictions I think that's the way to look at education as of course but we're both creative create the future and predict the future so that includes art and all those other things but close the loop on being less wrong about future so that's the work right way to think about education I mean down the road with the neuro-link you you can just upload any subject

instantly so we like the matrix you want to fly a helicopter no problem Oh helicopters will fly themselves but you know if you wanted to do whatever any any given skill you just upload it to instantly I mean the way education works right now it's extremely low bandwidth it's extremely slow lectures are the worst really it's like very slow yeah just try to predict the future with less error this is the heart this is very hard as you were saying I'm not sure it's 99.

9 percent but it's it's not very good generally a prediction of the future but I think often people don't try it the first thing is try if you don't try okay you know got it you gotta try and then and then adjust based on the error of your prior predictions yeah I think just to try is very good we should always have the confidence to try the future and I never worry about the errors and mistakes errors and mistakes that are the best assets of human lives and humans I think that when people worry about the disasters that AI is gonna bringing I think it's not the disasters it's the mistakes that human beings to make and trust human beings will be able to correct the mistakes and improve themselves and that we need education and this is what we think now

China today we have 1800 new babies born every year which which is not enough we need we need to have like much more than that but I think the best resources of the human beings on the or the best resources on the earth are not the coast not the oil not the electricity it's it's the human brains how can we make the human great brains more creative constructive how can we making sure that the machines are always the toys and tools of humans rather than the control so I'm never in my life and especially last two years where people talk about at AI say human human being will be controlled by machines I never think about it I think it's it's it's it's impossible right it's impossible because because human beings they are different machines invented by human

beings and according to the size humans can never create another animal that is smart and humans especially where you have so many smart people it's impossible to make another smart people I very much disagree with that ok yeah that's good yeah I mean the first thing you should assume is that we are very dumb and we could we can definitely make things smarter than ourselves I mean the they didn't used to be humans right so the then the our earliest civilization was very primitive we didn't have any technology really we're just like running around you know trying to not get eaten or just want to survive a winter now we have like heating and we grow food this is all new stuff so you know things that have obviously gotten way more smarter than the past way

smarter so that's going to continue we're not the last step in evolution so the most important thing like I said the most important was the mistake I see smart people making is assuming that they're smart they're not so give me example what the animals or things that a human being made that is smart a human beings well computers actually are already much smarter than people on so many dimensions we just keep moving the goal posts so we used to think like for example being good at chess was an example of a smart human and then Kasparov was crushed by deep blue in 97 that was a long time ago 22 years I mean right now your cell phone could crush the world champion of chess literally go used to be thought of as something that's humans were better at than

computers then Lisa Dahl was beaten for before 1 by alpha zero then a new version of alpha zero o icer should say alphago alphago beat at least at all for one then there's alpha 0 alpha zero crushed alphago hundred to zero now it's just pointless because it just keeps playing itself humans are trying to play a computer go is like trying to fight Zeus it's a not going to work a you hopeless we're hopeless hopelessly inadequate in terms of rendering and I think that basically there's just a smaller and smaller corner of what intellectual pursuits that humans are better than computers and that every year it gets smaller and smaller and and soon we will be far far surpassed in every single way guaranteed or civilizational and those the two possibilities okay

yeah my view is that computer may be clever by human being a much smarter yeah every not clever this very academic is knowledge driven smarter is experience driven computer is smart is clever but it's human being we invented a computer I never see a computer invented a human being this is my first point second point is that about a go play chess it's stupid to compete with a computer on play goal just like a hundred years ago where human being created cars so human being said I can run faster than a car it's impossible it's only stupid people to compete with a car who'll run faster go is designed for human to play with human right the chess is designed for human to human why should a human to fight against a computer so I never ever Li play chess or go

with computer I'll be happy to see two computers fight each other I'm not interested in play golf with chess so I told those guys they are very sad computer will be smart they're human beings because computer can't play chess better I think you are stupid to compete with that don't do that so this is we always do things we are good at sure okay well what be an example of something that humans are better than a computer at and and then let's see if that happens well humans computer is only one of the clever tools that human created and computers us a clever but there will be more tools that human beings will created much cleverer than computers that's my view okay well let me tell you like my view on the on AI is essentially the you can view the advancement

of AI as solving things with increasing numbers of degrees of with the increasing degrees of freedom so the the thing that what the thing with the most most degrees of freedom is reality but AI is steadily advanced solving things that have more and more degrees of freedom so obviously it's something like like checkers was very easy to solve that that we could solve with with classical software classical computing not really all that challenging and in fact there is a complete solution for checkers meaning it is literally literally impossible every every version of checkers is known and then then there's chess which was also was also it had many many more degrees of freedom than checkers many orders 90 or more than checkers but still really I would say

a low order of magnitude lower degree of freedom game then there's go which had many orders of magnitude more degrees of freedom than than chess so it's really just stepping through orders of magnitude of degrees of freedom this is the way to I think view the advancement of intelligence yeah it and and it's really gonna get to the point where it just can completely simulate a person in every way possible like many people simultaneously in fact I mean obviously there's a there's a strong argument we're in a simulation right now you know so reminds you that joke of like you know if if life was a video game what would be the review it's like well the graphics are incredible that the plot is confusing the respawn takes a long time that's a video game that's

life and if life is a video game respawned take takes 20 years disappointing human being and have them be fully conscious I'm worried about the birth rate which which you alluded to earlier the the contrary to like most people think we we have like too many people on the planet but actually this is this is an outdated view this is the assuming that AI is fine or assuming that AI is a there's a benevolent future with AI I think that the biggest problem the world will face in 20 years is population collapse collapse I want to emphasize this the biggest issue in 20 years we'll be population collapse not explosion collapse the it's very easy to see what the world will look like in 20 years because humans have a 20 year boot sequence so like you said okay

well who is born last year okay now you know what the world look like in 20 years it's that easy I absolutely agree with that the the population problem is going to be facing huge challenge 1.

4 billion people in China it sounds a lot but I think next 20 years we'll see this thing will bring big trouble to China and the population decreasing of the whole the speed of population decreasing is gonna speed up now you call it collapse I actually accelerating close that's the RIC class tolerating collapse and then the commoner rebuttal is like well what about immigration like from where you know you want to go to spay you know the Mars and Mars will emigrate yeah Marceline's here public mars these people these people you know there's no zero people there right now so right now it's the Machine planet there's only some robots there this is something that we should pay special attention that's why the the 18 million new babies born in China which

was less than I go only like 1% of something we should spend more time to create these people and treat life better but also I think about AI there's another thing which alone I in my company in our company a I would call Alibaba intelligent because we think when things with order with things with logic machine can't always do better hey I can do better but if things with an order without logic human being can do better for example when you love somebody there's no reason normally I just love him or just love her I have no reason but when I hate something body when I want to do bad things on something somebody there's a logic and with when there's a logic hey I can do better what we do on our end financing we you would teach machine all the bad things

that bad guys want to do machine can learn quickly and arrest all the bad guys immediately but when you want to do good things not necessarily AI means love that's absolutely right so that is why the world the AI if the way I can bring love which I caught in the past if you have the successful person you have to be L and EQ and IQ right in the future if you want to survive in this world you have to be the L Q the Q of love that's important too otherwise you cannot survive in artificial intelligence time my greatest love is the answer yeah many songs about that you want to pick up the final one use me gentlemen teach the time is very limited so we only have five minutes left so last question please yeah I thought you want to pick up the last life or human

being machines so you want to talk about your cars ultimately autonomy what do you want to talk this feels like one of those steps in a video game we would like pick a path to choice I choose life okay life so how much longer do you think people can live for with the helper a I can a I help with environment sustainability can you well I think first of all I think humans will solve environmental sustainability I do not mean to suggest complacency or that we just take it easy in fact this is a self fulfilling one fulfilling prophecy we must we must take immediate and traumatic action and we you know we and continue the momentum towards environmental sustainability and China is actually the world leader in this in fact I'm not sure how well it is known outside

of China just how much China is a world leader in environmental sustainability it's extremely impressive I mean I think half of all the electric cars in the world were made in China last year or something like that so you know I so I don't mean to suggest suggest complacency but I do think humans can and will solve sustainability if if we can if we can do the neural lace then I think or the neural link essentially the age will not matter that much you can simply save your state and restore your state like just like a saved game essentially something very close to that I do think we can we can solve biological aging if we really want it to you would have to make DNA changes but it's obviously just on a on a clock all all organisms are I mean you could

take a fruit fly for example and you could give it yo to sort of have it to daily yoga and I have a very healthy diet and it's still gonna live for three weeks maybe four weeks so environmental factors are a relatively minor for extending life you have to change the DNA and those other like will people be okay with changing the DNA that's the the thing about extending life you know and probably people are a little reticent about that but that's essentially the thing that needs to occur to extend life you've got you've got to stuff the DNA clock somehow I don't know if we should work on this or not I think frankly you know it's it's probably a good thing that we do eventually die you know there's a saying like in physics like even physicists which are

generally quite objective is like saying like you know all physicists don't change their mind they just die so then maybe you know there's a it's good to have this life cycle yeah well I think AI can definitely help the environment suspend sustainability and when human beings know themselves better human being will be smarter and will be wiser the difference between clever people and smart people or wise people smart people knows what he wants and how he can get it wise people know what he doesn't want so when human beings using artificial intelligence they will understand themselves better and I think there will be a minutes of ways people will live in a healthy earth and protect the healthy earth the reason why I want I want to stay in this earth I

want to work on this earth I want to do anything I can to help this earth to better because even in a go to this space is great but if we can spend at resources just to focus on helping pick up the garbage from the oceans that thing is more difficult than to go to the Mars but artificial intelligence can help us achieving that and solve the problems and the second a human being can live better can live longer but what we need is not only lived longer we want to live healthier how can we live healthier it's to understand us better most of the disease are caused by our behavior so I think I'm 100 percent sure people will live longer people will live healthier but may not necessarily live happier if you want to be happier human beings your focus Valley the

vision and the mission and always have the dreams and I don't want people love to technology and put them dreams on the technology I think the technology should be with dreams it's the not technology change of the world is the dreams behind the technology that changed the world so my my hope is that anything we can do to improve this road to helping seven point four billion people live better and live healthier and this is all about our world and I think we will be working very happily because I love your product Tesla you know making work cleaner and you have a de Factory in China and I think we need to do more things to improve this earth improve this world and make sure that people are happier and people care about the family people care about the

house that's all we should do and trust us trust a human beings and trust young people let's take responsibility for today but let's not take away all the solutions for tomorrow it's great human being make mistakes it's great human being learn from mistakes it's great to die thank you live long ice is like yeah thank you fight for the light of consciousness thank you you