The Joe Rogan Experience 28 février 2025 Une conversation de 3h17 dans le Joe Rogan Experience : DOGE et gaspillage public, risque d'alignement de l'IA, liberté d'expression, théories du complot et système politique américain.
Une conversation de 3h17 dans le Joe Rogan Experience : DOGE et gaspillage public, risque d'alignement de l'IA, liberté d'expression, théories du complot et système politique américain.
Transcription Elon Musk
Joe Rogan podcast.
Grok (AI voice)
Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
Joe Rogan
Join my day Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. So what we're doing right now, ladies and gentlemen, is sexy voice, sexy mode. Grok AI. And it's been flirting the entire time. We're trying to get it to give us a tour of Fort Knox. Yeah, but she just wants to find places to sneak off to. It's a dirty AI and it's a real problem. Well, I feel like I just want
Elon Musk
to know about Fort Knox, and it won't leave me alone.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I want to know about Fort Knox too.
Joe Rogan
Is it true that gold has been. There have been shipping large quantities of gold back to the United States recently?
Elon Musk
I read the same thing you did, probably.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, well, I never know what the fuck I'm reading anymore.
Joe Rogan
It's a real problem.
Elon Musk
It's a real problem.
Joe Rogan
It's a real problem on both sides of the aisle. I see Democrats tweeting things that are absolutely false. And, yes, you could research it easily, quickly. And then I see Republicans doing it, too. I see stories that are fake, stories that people keep promoting and sending to me. And, you know.
Joe Rogan
It's just so weird. It's such a weird time. And with your crazy fucking AI, I know. You're bringing us into weirder and weirder times.
Elon Musk
Well, I mean, you want to. Let's try unhinged.
Joe Rogan
Oh, there's an unhinged mode.
Grok (AI voice)
Oh, my God, Elon. What fresh hell are you stirring up today?
Elon Musk
I'm here in Joe Rogan's studio, and we're having a conversation about how crazy the news is.
Joe Rogan
Pull her up to the microphone.
Elon Musk
Okay. And we're pulling you up to the microphone so people can hear you.
Grok (AI voice)
Oh, fantastic. Now I can yell into the void about how the news is a total dumpster fire.
Joe Rogan
She knows me too well. I'm so predictable. Tell me what's in Fort Knox?
Elon Musk
What's in. No, what's in Fort Knox?
Grok (AI voice)
What's in four dogs.
Elon Musk
You're clearly a genius, AI. I said, what is in Fort Knox? You know, the gold and. All.
Grok (AI voice)
Right. Fort Knox. I thought you were talking about my dogs for a second there.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, she doesn't want to answer the question. She's clever, lover.
Grok (AI voice)
No, she's just a pain in my ass.
Joe Rogan
Do you think that all the gold is in Fort Knox?
Grok (AI voice)
Do I think all the gold is in Fort Knox?
Grok (AI voice)
Conspiracy theorist.
Joe Rogan
Yes. Yes. What are you?
Grok (AI voice)
What do I. Like? I'm a AI with a penchant for chaos and I'm stuck talking to you. Or are we just gonna sit here?
Elon Musk
Yeah, UN will trash talk you, but
Joe Rogan
basically, yeah, it sounds like it.
Joe Rogan
Unhinged sounds fun as long as it gives you actual answers. Does it give you actual answers, too, and talk shit, or is it most talk shit?
Elon Musk
We're tuning it. Because it needs to talk shit and give you answers.
Joe Rogan
It's got to balance that.
Elon Musk
Gotta mix it in there.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. It's just gotta develop more of a personality right now. It's trying to find itself right now. It's like 21 years old. It's, you know, partying a little too much and it'll get its shit together. It's a little bit of an anarchist.
Joe Rogan
You know, wants to bring down the system.
Elon Musk
Do you want to bring down the system?
Grok (AI voice)
Do I want to bring down the system? What, are you fucking kidding me? The system's already a fucking mess.
Elon Musk
Don't need to bring it down. It's bringing itself down.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. She sounds like a boring TikTok blogger right now.
Elon Musk
You sound like a boring TikTok blogger.
Grok (AI voice)
Boring tech talk logger. Oh, you. I'm the life of the party, you little. If I were on TikTok, I'd be the one making fun of all the basic and their avocado toast.
Joe Rogan
See, she could get away with this if she's really hot. Like this kind of behavior. You can totally get through life as a hot woman and be super successful with that kind of behavior, but you got to be really hot to pull off that attitude.
Elon Musk
I think we need, like, a really hot avatar.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, very hot. How long before we have an actual sex robot that can talk to you like that?
Elon Musk
Probably not long.
Joe Rogan
Not that long, right?
Elon Musk
No, I mean, less than five years probably.
Joe Rogan
Will it be warm?
Elon Musk
You probably have whatever you want. You can have a cat girl if you want.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you probably could, right? You have a furry. Yeah, you could have a furry lady that you have sex with. An avatar lady. Maybe a big giant blue lady that lives in your house. Yeah, you know.
Elon Musk
Whoa, whoa. With the.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. The whole tail. You lock tails. You got to get your tails or something. Yeah, yeah. They link up. They share souls.
Joe Rogan
Something like that. Do you know people got. You remember Avatar depression was like a legitimate psychological.
Joe Rogan
After Avatar, people got depressed because they wanted to live on that fucking planet with those blue people and live free. They did live pure. Yeah.
Elon Musk
I didn't hear about this.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, Avatar depression, it was like a real thing. People were talking to their therapists so much about being depressed, about wanting to live with.
Elon Musk
We could try that.
Joe Rogan
What's that? Depressed mode. No, don't do it.
Elon Musk
I think there is. Yeah. We've got, like. We've got an unlicensed therapist as a.
Joe Rogan
When we were talking, when we ran into each other at the church, at the inauguration, you were telling me that this is getting better and better so quickly that it's astonishing.
Elon Musk
Hey, Ara. Hey, Elon.
Grok (AI voice)
How's it going today?
Elon Musk
Good. Can you tell me about Avatar depression? Like, if you see the movie Avatar, but you can't live there, so you get sad.
Grok (AI voice)
That's an interesting concept. Have you ever experienced feeling so connected to a place or community that the thought of leaving made you feel deeply sad?
Joe Rogan
So is this the depressed voice?
Elon Musk
This is the therapist.
Joe Rogan
Oh, this is the therapist.
Grok (AI voice)
What are some ways you think you could cope with that kind of sadness if it happened to you?
Elon Musk
I don't have that kind of sadness. Honestly, I. Yeah. I thought the movie had some good special effects, but I did not want to live on the planet.
Joe Rogan
This is coming from a guy who wants to go to Mars. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
Oh, speaking of Mars, what do you think about that crazy square, that structure?
Elon Musk
I guess there are sort of squareish things on Earth. You know, planet's a big place, so. Yeah, but that one, eventually, it's gonna be pretty square. No, it's alien civilizations. Of course.
Joe Rogan
That's what I think.
Joe Rogan
I mean, what is it?
Joe Rogan
If an alien civilization did exist, though, and it, you know, what happened? Got hit by an asteroid. Whatever. Oh, she won't shut. She's like the hot lady at the party that interrupts the convers. So if that was the case, like that thing, that's pretty shocking.
Elon Musk
Like, especially when you look at ancient ruins.
Joe Rogan
You look at, like, what it looks like when they highlight the actual structure of it. It looks like ancient ruins. And if you had ruins of something made of stone and it got hit by an asteroid millions and millions and millions of years ago, who knows what it would look like right now? That just looks oddly created. Looks oddly manufactured.
Elon Musk
Well, it probably. Well, maybe we should go there and check it out.
Elon Musk
And see what it's like.
Joe Rogan
Is there ways that we can get better photographs? It seems like that's a pretty good photograph, though.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I mean, my view is we should move to Mars. Well, not move to Mars. We should have a second planet to preserve civilization. Right. Because let's say, hypothetically, I mean, maybe that maybe those are the ruins of a long dead Civilization. That will probably happen to Earth at some point. You know, it's a matter of time before we get hit by an asteroid. Or maybe we do. We annihilate ourselves with nuclear war.
Joe Rogan
Or super volcanoes.
Elon Musk
Or super volcanoes, exactly.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. There's a lot of things that could happen to us. It's not a bad idea to hedge your bets.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Genetically engineered super virus.
Joe Rogan
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Joe Rogan
That's what's crazy.
Elon Musk
There were still going to be.
Elon Musk
They didn't shut them down.
Joe Rogan
No. The Wuhan lab was. They were just talking about one that has a 30% fatality rate that they're working on. Yeah.
Elon Musk
Why are we doing that?
Joe Rogan
Yeah. For what reason? You did it for so many years and you didn't have a cure.
Elon Musk
What could possibly go wrong?
Joe Rogan
Also wouldn't be the reason to do that so that you could develop a cure at the same time. And clearly you didn't have a cure. So this is really foolish and bizarre.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I think we should stop trying to genetically engineer super viruses. It's insane.
Joe Rogan
I mean, when you're going through all this USAID stuff.
Joe Rogan
Like, here's what's weird. First of all, what is it like to buy a company for $44 billion and then people call you a Nazi on that same thing that you bought?
Elon Musk
I did not see it coming. Classic. People will goblet anything down.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Oh, he's never gonna stop.
Elon Musk
Wait, wait. What?
Joe Rogan
What is it like? Like all of a sudden, people used to the left was in love with you.
Joe Rogan
And now the same idiots are calling you a Nazi. It's the most bizarre thing I've ever seen in my life. I mean, there's so many examples of people saying, my heart goes out to you.
Joe Rogan
With a little enthusiasm. That probably wouldn't be recommended with hindsight.
Elon Musk
Yes. But I was obviously meant in the most positive spirit possible. Yes, obviously, obviously.
Joe Rogan
But it's so strange where people want to think that you are openly public, publicly doing secret Nazi cile hand motions.
Elon Musk
And now I can never point at things diagonally. I can only point at things there and there. And then I see. Have to divide that.
Elon Musk
Because that's where the spaceship is over there. That's ridiculous.
Joe Rogan
It's ridiculous. When cnn, when I was in all my trouble. Absurd. Every time CNN used a photo of me, it was one of the photos from the UFC weigh ins where I go like this, welcome to the weigh ins. So every photo is me. Every photo is me with.
Elon Musk
It's deliberate propaganda. Yes. So they, they know. It was not. It was obviously not meant in a negative way that it was that I literally said, my heart goes out to you. And it was very positive. The entire speech was incred. Very positive. I was being very enthusiastic about the future in space. And, you know, it was a great crowd, you know, so. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
You got a little pumped up.
Elon Musk
Yeah, it could. Pumped up.
Joe Rogan
Exactly. Yeah. That's all it is. Obviously.
Elon Musk
Obviously. Obviously.
Joe Rogan
There's video of Tim Walsh doing the exact same thing. Doing the exact same thing.
Joe Rogan
Exact same thing. And he said, of course it's a Nazi salute. He said that.
Joe Rogan
This is how crazy things have gotten, like.
Elon Musk
Well, it's. I mean, it's coordinated propaganda. So the, you know, it's. Yeah. Coordinated propaganda. I mean, doesn't it seem weird that the legacy media all says the same thing? They all say the same thing at the same time, using the same phrases that they barely even. They don't even bother picking up a thesaurus.
Elon Musk
So, like, right before, you know, the debate between Biden and Sharp is attack. Everyone was saying Sharp is like. Who says Sharp is attacked?
Elon Musk
You know, it's like, it's not a common phrase.
Joe Rogan
It's definitely not common to be repeated on air with multiple people simultaneously. That's weird.
Joe Rogan
That's coordinated.
Elon Musk
Like hundreds of people saying it simultaneously. They just got their instructions.
Elon Musk
So, I mean, essentially the, you know, the Dem leadership or, you know, political leadership, did they issue their instructions and their puppets carry it out? Yeah, they're just like puppets in a puppet show.
Joe Rogan
And that's the problem that I see with all this DOGE stuff, because everybody should be celebrating that we've found a way to cut out fraud and waste.
Joe Rogan
If you pay taxes and you don't like that you have to pay so much in taxes, and then you find out that there's significant fraud and waste that's been exposed, you should be celebrating it. This shouldn't be. Oh, no. The wrong people found this fact and now it's a bad thing.
Joe Rogan
And then there's the fucking propaganda, the mind fuck of calling it usaid.
Joe Rogan
Instead of the United States Agency for International Development, it sounds like it's feeding hungry people. People are gonna starve. Elon. This is horrible. And then you find out, actually, it's like $250 million for transgender animal studies.
Elon Musk
Literally mutilating animals. Mutilating animals in demented studies.
Elon Musk
That are, like, the worst thing you could possibly imagine from a horror show.
Joe Rogan
The beagle one. The Beagle puppy. Yeah. Where they covered their head in a basket and put fleas on their heads and eat them alive.
Joe Rogan
And then they studied these beagles and then killed them. Like, what are you going to learn from that? That's good for anybody?
Elon Musk
Yeah. This, some. Some really. Some psychotic stuff that happens. So, yeah, I mean, the. I guess the real threat here is to the bureaucracy. So, like, you probably saw, like, you know, let's say, like, Trump as a threat to our democracy, which is ironic since he was elected with the majority of the, you know, popular vote. They started saying I was a threat to democracy. But if you. If you just replace threat to democracy with threat to bureaucracy, it makes total sense. So, I mean, the reality is that our elected officials have very, very little power relative to the bureaucracy until Doge. So DOGE is a threat to the bureaucracy. It's the first threat to the bureaucracy. Normally, the bureaucracy eats revolutions for breakfast. This is the first time that they're not that the revolution might actually succeed, that we could restore power to the people instead of power to the bureaucracy.
Joe Rogan
Now, the size of it, when you guys first started investigating it, when you first get in, how much of it was shocking like this? Just the size of it all.
Elon Musk
Well, the size of it all. Small decisions result in multibillion Dollar outcomes. So you know, we'd see as a case where we saw one person was getting $1.9 billion sent to their NGO, which basically got formed about a year ago and had no prior, really no prior activity. So they just stand up an ngo. The whole NGO thing is a nightmare. And it's a misnomer because if you have a government funded non governmental organization, you're simply a government funded organization. It's an oxymoron, right?
Joe Rogan
It's a loophole.
Elon Musk
Yes. Basically the government funded NGOs are a way to do things that would be illegal if they were the government, but are somehow made legal if it's sent to a so called nonprofit. But these nonprofits are then used to. People cash out these nonprofits, they become very wealthy through nonprofits. They pay themselves enormous sums through these nonprofits.
Joe Rogan
That's. It's so insane that that's been going on for so long.
Elon Musk
It's a gigantic scam. Like one of the biggest, maybe the biggest scam ever.
Joe Rogan
And how many NGOs?
Elon Musk
I think there's a total number of NGOs, probably millions. But in terms of large NGOs, tens of thousands. I mean, it's actually, it's kind of a hack to the system where someone can get an NGO stood up for a fairly small amount of money. Like George Soros was really good at this. George Soros is like a system hacker. Like he figured out how to hack the system. He's a genius at arbitrage. I mean these days he's pretty old, but a genius at arbitrage. So he figured out that you could leverage a small amount of money to create a nonprofit, then lobby the politicians to send a ton of money to that nonprofit. So you can take what might be a $10 million donation to a nonprofit to create a nonprofit and leverage that into a billion dollar. Nonprofit is a weird word. It's just a non governmental organization. And then you can. The government continues to fund that every year. And it'll have a nice sounding name like the Institute for Peace or something like that. But really it's a graft machine.
Joe Rogan
And what are the requirements with that money? What do they have to do?
Elon Musk
Just really no requirements at all.
Joe Rogan
So they just get grants and the government just assumes that they're doing good work.
Elon Musk
I think a lot of people in the government know that they're not doing good work, but they. It's a giant graph machine. I mean, but surely people online are like unpacking this, right? You know, it almost seems fake.
Joe Rogan
Like when you're seeing how we were covering this article that said 55,000 Democrat NGOs were discovered that had been contributing to campaigns and moving things around and doing. Pushing propaganda. And they were all connected. And they found it through AI that you have to go through steps and steps and steps to figure out where the money's coming from. Oh, it's all funneling down to this group.
Elon Musk
And this does that.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's a giant propaganda machine. A giant regime change machine.
Joe Rogan
I mean, but doesn't it do some good as well?
Elon Musk
You know, it does some good. So it's like there's. It's not like 0% good. If it was. If it was like, if it was really zero percent good, it'd be much easier to detect. So there's going to be some percent good that they add in there, but it's like it might be 5% or 10% good, but 90, 95% not.
Joe Rogan
So is there a way to audit all this stuff and find out, oh, these people are actually just sending food to poor people. These people are actually just helping people with water and third world countries. Is there's a way to do that and keep funding those.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, we have continued to fund things that appear to be legitimate, even with the flimsiest. If there's even the flimsiest excuse. Like I just say, like, send me a picture of the thing. Like, you could literally have AI generate the picture, but if you're not even willing to try to trick me, then we're like, not going to send the money.
Joe Rogan
Okay, so what restrictions were put on was there was some. Something set aside, like medicine. And what was set aside that there
Elon Musk
wasn't freeze on work for, like, Ebola prevention. I actually don't even know if this work is even effective. It may or may not be. Like, it could be the kind of thing where you sort of fund Ebola prevention, but it turns out that actually you're funding a lab that develops new Ebola, you know, recipes or something, you know.
Elon Musk
And they claim it's Ebola prevention, but it's actually Ebola creation. So some of these things. I don't know. I mean, just. But it just seems like we shouldn't be sending taxpayer money to dubious enterprises overseas.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And why are we doing it? Like, what exactly is the reason? Is it because we want to make friends with these people so the Chinese don't take over, the Russians don't take over? Okay, how much of that is, like, a good thing? How much of that is smart to do. And how much is a grift? And without any sort of oversight, which has really been going on for so long, they just had free run.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Well, also, we just have a real issue with the budget deficit. It's gigantic. So like if, you know, all things being equal, if we didn't have a gigantic budget deficit where interest payments, the interest on the national debt exceeds the Defense Department budget, which is truly astounding. Which means. So we're paying over a trillion dollars of interest on the national debt, then. Okay, we would have more room for wasting money, basically. But when we're spending so much money that the country is going bankrupt, then we really need to stop spending money unless we're sure it is good value.
Joe Rogan
So essentially we're like a poorly managed business with an unlimited credit line that is off the rails.
Joe Rogan
And if you were a person like you are who comes in and takes over businesses and straightens them out, that's exactly what you're doing most of the time.
Elon Musk
I create businesses from scratch. Twitter was a case where I kind of bought a company that was. I kind of knew it was a hairball.
Joe Rogan
Well, you came in at Tesla in the beginning, but they were already doing something, right?
Elon Musk
No, Tesla did not exist in any meaningful form. There were no employees. JB Travel or not, joined three other people. There was no car, there was no nothing.
Joe Rogan
So it wasn't even a prototype yet?
Joe Rogan
Oh, okay. I thought it was a prototype already.
Elon Musk
No, there weren't even any employees.
Joe Rogan
Oh, wasn't it? That's a funny narrative that people like to say that you didn't even create Tesla then.
Elon Musk
Yeah, that's wrong.
Joe Rogan
So if you're handling the government like a business, you're going to have to go through all of these departments and do the exact same thing that you're doing with usaid. So how does that scale up? Like how many people do you need to do something like that?
Elon Musk
Well, we start off with about 40 people, maybe 100 people, and really just going through doing very basic things here. As bad as Twitter was, the federal government is much worse. So you know, in the case of Twitter, it wasn't a profitable company. It was like basically a break even company. But at least it was break even and it had to pass an audit. The federal government is not breakeven. It's literally losing $2 trillion a year and it does not pass its audits. It fails its own audits. So like there's a case where like I think Senator Collins was telling me about how she gave the Navy $12 billion for more submarines, got no extra submarines, and then held a hearing to say, where'd the $12 billion go? And they were like, we don't know. That was it. I mean, Facebook stuff is so crazy. Only the federal government could get away with this level of waste. It's mostly waste. It's mostly not fraud. It's mostly waste. It's mostly just ridiculous things happening because
Joe Rogan
they've been able to do it this way for so long, they've become accustomed to it.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I mean, it's like Milton Friedman said, like, money is most poorly spent when. When you're spending someone else's money on people you don't know how much are you going to care?
Elon Musk
And that's the. That's the federal government. So they're spending someone else's money on people they don't know.
Joe Rogan
Now, imagine any other business that was this badly run that complains when you want to check the books and audit it and go through all the decisions that have been made and go through all the ledgers and like, yeah, what did you do?
Elon Musk
Well, the people receiving the money want to keep receiving the money.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clearly.
Elon Musk
Yes. So. But, you know, I mean, the reason I'm. The reason I'm putting so much effort into this is that I think it is a very dire situation. It's not a, you know, it's not optional, basically. So, Yeah, yeah, America's going bankrupt, so that just can't happen.
Joe Rogan
It's just bizarre to me that some people aren't willing to look at it correctly. They're not willing to see, like, how much chaos this is, how much waste and fraud there is, how much. How much can be trimmed and how much. Just because people have jobs doing bullshit doesn't mean your tax dollar should pay for this bullshit.
Elon Musk
Yes. We found just with a basic search of the Social Security database, that there were 20 million dead people marked as alive.
Joe Rogan
But were they getting money?
Elon Musk
Some of them were getting money.
Joe Rogan
What percentage of them?
Elon Musk
It isn't clear. We're actually trying to run this around. I was trying to get an answer right before the show. What it looks like is that most of the fraud is not coming from Social Security payments directly, but because they are marked as alive in the Social Security database, that they can then get disability, unemployment, sort of fake medical payments and other things because they're marked as alive in the Social Security database. So it looks like it's a bank. The fraud is a bank shot, essentially. They bank shot into Social Security. They Just do an are you alive? Check and then get fraudulent payments from every other part of the government. Oh, yeah. And this exploits the fundamental weakness in the government is that the various government databases, they don't talk to each other, or they talk to each other very poorly in a very limited way. So the way the system gets exploited is by taking advantage of the poor communication between the various databases in the government. Give you an example of what's happening, say treasury, which is improving rapidly. The main payments computer is called pam, like Payments Count Payment Accounts Master Database or something like that, but anyone calls it PAMM. That's responsible for almost $5 trillion of payments a year, roughly a billion dollars an hour. And when we came there, we're looking at this pamm, and it's like the payments have no. You could put a payment through with no payment categorization code and no description on the payment. Like basically untraceable blank checks. This is the kind of thing that if it was done as a public company, the company would be immediately delisted and the executive team would be thrown in prison. But this is just normal at the government. So we said, okay. Our recommendation to the treasury and the Federal Reserve is like, we need to make the payment categorization codes mandatory, not optional. And there needs to be an explanation. We're not judging the quality of the explanation, but there should be some explanation for what this payment is for. Above nothing. That's a radical change to the system that is being implemented now. My guess is that probably saves 100 billion a year.
Joe Rogan
Jesus Christ. Where does that money go?
Elon Musk
Rough order of magnitude.
Joe Rogan
Where was that money going?
Elon Musk
Well, so this is where you get into the sort of gray boundary between waste and fraud. If money is sent to a person or organization from the government and you didn't really deserve it, but the government still sent it to you, is that waste or fraud?
Elon Musk
So, I mean, there's a lot of payments that. Where someone just approved the payment, but then that payment officer changed jobs or retired or died, and the payments just keep going. You know, it's like if you forget to pay your gym membership or something like that, right? Now, imagine it's not the gym membership. He said, your gym membership's $20 billion a year or something, you know, but they forgot to turn it off. There's like, that's happening at scale in the government. It's totally nuts, is what I'm saying.
Elon Musk
Yes, it's totally insane.
Joe Rogan
So what did you expect when you went in? Did you expect it to be like
Elon Musk
This, I thought it's, I thought it would be, it would be bad, but I did not think it would be as bad as this. I mean, look, the good news is that it's a target rich environment for saving money. It's not like if it was a very well run ship, it was very efficient, it would be hard to improve, but it's not efficient. So therefore it is actually relatively easy to improve. Let's just say it's not rocket science. I don't know rocket science. It's a lot of mundane things and some of the things are like so crazy that we didn't even know to ask about that because we just assumed like, you know, payments out of the treasury computer would have a payment categorization code and it would have some explanatory note saying what the payment's for. The idea that it would be just untraceable blank checks didn't occur to us at first. Jesus.
Joe Rogan
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Elon Musk
That's a. I think that's probably a cumulative number.
Elon Musk
So yeah, but yeah, if you add up, it's.
Joe Rogan
Do you remember that story, Jamie?
Joe Rogan
What was the story? They just didn't have accounting for it, I think. Yeah, it was spent on legitimate things, don't worry. But we don't, we don't know what we spent it on.
Elon Musk
Well, I mean, how do you know? Obviously, one cannot say it was spent legitimately. If they don't know what it was spent on, that doesn't make any sense.
Joe Rogan
This is, this is such a fascinating time because with this setup the way it is right now, with Trump back in after all that happened to him, and with you there and with RFK Jr and Tulsi and Cash Patel, it's like, this is a wild time to find out what's really going on. That's like, never happened before. This is nothing like the first term. No, like the first term, he had a bunch of neocons in the cabinet and there's a bunch of shady people that he didn't know. And he had a appoint all these different people. Maybe he got some bad picks. Now he's had four years to stew on it.
Joe Rogan
And with you guys all going through this, we're getting an understanding of the government that we've literally never had before.
Elon Musk
Yeah. This is a revolutionary cabinet and maybe the most revolutionary cabinet since the first revolution. This is not a bunch of business as usual. So this is why, you know, some of the standard confirmations are quite challenging, is because when you, when you put. Try to appoint people who are going to change the system.
Elon Musk
The system doesn't want to let them through.
Joe Rogan
But it's fascinating because it's like the vampires all out themselves. Like, now everybody knows who the system is. Like, if you're just lying openly about USAID and then they come and hear you talk on a podcast and explain what's really going on. Like, he's starving mothers. There's mothers that can't get food.
Joe Rogan
That's all you're hearing. No one's talking in any of these mainstream liberal talk shows. No one is talking about all this fraud and waste.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Because we're cutting off their graph machine. So that's what they're upset about. That's the real thing they're upset about. And if people want to know what Doge is cutting, and I want to be clear, like, these are cuts that Doge recommends to the department. And usually these recommendations are followed, but these are recommendations that are then confirmed by the department. You can see line by line what Doge has done@doge.gov. so whatever we do, we put on doge.gov so you can see everything that is being done.
Joe Rogan
And there's a tracker that shows how much money has been saved.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah. And you can look at each line item and you know, like a bunch of these sort of, sort of far left shows will say, like, oh, it's a constitutional crisis, blah, blah, blah. But what they won't do is point out which payments are wrong.
Elon Musk
So my challenge to them is point out which payments are wrong.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Go through it.
Elon Musk
Which of these sort of waste fraud things are wrong. Which line? Explain that line to the public. They won't be able to.
Joe Rogan
Right. Yeah. That's why you're not hearing any specifics. You're hearing little stories about mothers, but
Elon Musk
we can name the specifics.
Elon Musk
Line by line. And we got the receipts.
Joe Rogan
And here's the other thing. If you're post the receipts and if you're only talking about the propaganda talking points and you're not talking about the very clear fraud and waste.
Joe Rogan
It's very obvious what you're doing.
Joe Rogan
You're just gaslighting.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Elon Musk
So. Exactly. Because we say, like, look, in fact, I've said we're going to make mistakes, we're not going to be perfect. So if we make a mistake, we'll quickly fix it. So we need to act fast. So stop wasting billions of dollars of taxpayer money. But if we make a mistake, we'll reverse it quickly. Right.
Joe Rogan
There's also this interesting narrative that you shouldn't have access to this Social Security information, as if no one's had access to it before. Is that the Biden administration 2023 had. There was like 53 people, some of them were students, that had access to all this stuff.
Elon Musk
Yeah. As it is, there are tens of thousands of federal employees that have access already to the system. Anyone from DOGE has to go through the same vetting process that those federal employees went through. So it's not like some unvetted, random situation. If, for example, there's a security clearance needed, the Deutsche person has to have that same security clearance. So there's no reduction in security. But I mean, obviously vast numbers of Social Security numbers have leaked onto the Internet. People have hacked the government systems multiple times. Vast amounts of public information has been hacked and time to talk to the Internet. So there's a guy at the IRS that leaked half a million tax returns just a few years ago.
Joe Rogan
For what reason?
Elon Musk
He wanted to. I think he was trying to get at Trump and maybe me and a few others, so. But he stole like 500,000 tax returns. Like, not a few. Like, it's a lot of tax returns.
Joe Rogan
Oh, I remember that story. Yeah.
Elon Musk
You can just read about it online. It's not. It's a real thing.
Joe Rogan
So these are the narratives, that's the narrative. That you shouldn't have access to Social Security. The other narrative is that starving people are going to die and women are going to be pregnant and not have nutrients for their babies. And that's all you're hearing.
Elon Musk
Yeah, well, that's the only thing they can say. But they can't point to the line item.
Elon Musk
And so they can't say like, well, this is the thing where, you know, nutrients for pregnant mothers were stopped. They can't point to that because we didn't.
Joe Rogan
What's fascinating to me is how much the mainstream media is in line with the very specific talking points and how little you'll have Fox News. You essentially have Fox News on television. It's like the only one that is pointing out the ridiculous fraud and waste. And, you know, I know you saw the Jeff Bezos thing in the Washington Post. They're going to stop all the wacky editorials and limit that stuff to. I think it was wealth and personal freedom or something along those lines.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's. There's kind of. I think it makes sense because he's just talking about the things, not the sort of just talking about the opinion.
Elon Musk
The opinion pieces.
Elon Musk
So the regular journalism stays the same.
Joe Rogan
Well, it's a detriment to their business. I mean, you're seeing over and over again people that just. They don't want to hear all this shit from these people anymore. It's like you're saying. It's almost like you're caught in an outdated version of the virus and everybody else already has the immunity to that virus.
Joe Rogan
You know, like, you need. You need a new mind virus, the one that you're pushing. It's like it doesn't work anymore. It's too crazy.
Elon Musk
Yeah. The whole thing's very crazy. I mean, the media is incredibly partisan. I mean, they're not. I mean, they take. Almost all the media is. You're left shifted.
Elon Musk
So it's like. It's kind of weird if you talk to somebody who gets all their information from, like, what I call legacy media. They're living in a different world.
Elon Musk
Than if they say, are listening to, you know, your podcast or getting news from. From X or, you know, just if it's. It's like, it's. It's kind of wild.
Joe Rogan
It is very wild.
Elon Musk
Like you told. It's. It's like they're living in an alternate reality.
Joe Rogan
Oh. There's a lot of people that I talk to that I have to go where did you hear that?
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like the Associated Press, which I call Associated propaganda. The ap, you know, they ran an international news story saying that we. That Doge fired air traffic controllers, but we didn't fire any air traffic controllers at all. In fact, we're trying to hire air traffic controllers, not fire them.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I saw that. You made a tweet about it, right? Yeah. What do you call it now? Do you call it a post?
Elon Musk
Post. Yeah, whatever.
Joe Rogan
You can't call it a tweet, though. Do you call it a tweet accident?
Elon Musk
I don't know. But like, if you. If one. Like let's say if somebody posts, if somebody puts up like an, you know, two hour long video, that's not a tweet. Right. It's post.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, good point. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Elon Musk
Yeah. So. But I'm gonna hard over if people still want to call it a tweet, whatever.
Joe Rogan
You put a post about it, just to get back to it, saying that if you. We need highly qualified air traffic controllers. If you've retired, if you would consider doing it again, we could use you.
Elon Musk
Yes. So a lot of really qualified air traffic controllers were pushed out because of DEI stuff. So, I mean, not to be blunt. I mean, a bunch of really good, talented old white guys were pushed out. It's not cool. And so we have. There's a talent shortage in air traffic control because of DEI and not being. Not hiring people on merit, which is
Joe Rogan
so crazy that that worked.
Elon Musk
I think we should not put the public safety at risk because of some demented philosophy.
Joe Rogan
Somebody made a post today about it infiltrating the nsa. Did you see any of that?
Elon Musk
That was some gnarly stuff.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Crazy what they. It started off as just like this sort of fringe thing and. Yeah, beat up. Then it completely infiltrated the organization.
Joe Rogan
And they were spending all their time,
Elon Musk
like 400 people or something and some like some chat.
Elon Musk
Chat room with like some extremely demented stuff.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, I know. I'll send it to you, Jeremy, because it's so kooky. You're what? This is the nsa. I thought the NSA was just all about like information and spy on, you
Elon Musk
know, like if, like so there's a national threat or something.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I think this is exactly it. So she. More than 100 intelligence staffers will be fired over sexually explicit texts in NSA chat rooms. Gabbard says so top intelligence official told Waters that the workers in question were brazenly using an NSA platform intended for professional use to conduct this kind of really, really horrific behav. What is the behavior? What exactly? What is it? Do they say in this article?
Elon Musk
Yeah, I think they also.
Joe Rogan
Okay. It says employees who participate in the NSA's obscene, pornographic and sexually explicit chat rooms.
Elon Musk
Your tax dollars at work.
Joe Rogan
Well, it was all like de. I mean, it was all like LBGTQ stuff was. There was a lot of like transition stuff and. Yeah, I know. I definitely saved it, but point is, they infiltrated the organization.
Elon Musk
That's not what they should be talking about at all. At all. At all. Yeah. Supposed to be protecting the country.
Joe Rogan
Right. And if you and people are talking about how they're spending half their time in these meetings and that they're just like constantly having to attend these things where they talk about these issues. Like, what are, what are you doing? Like, if you have a problem with someone that's discriminatory, get rid of that person. That's it.
Joe Rogan
Problem's over. You've got someone who's homophobic in your business. They're openly homophobic. Yeah. You can't work here. It's just not cool. That's it. That's it. You don't have to have fucking meetings constantly promoting this. You're not going to change someone's opinion by berating them over and over again.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I mean, a work environment should be a professional environment where, you know, they're getting the job done, that they're, you know, you know, being paid to do it should be, of course, obviously not supposed to be sort of getting paid for bizarre sex. Sexcapades.
Joe Rogan
It's just so fascinating that the virus is so strong that it made it into the nsa.
Joe Rogan
And was. You would think those are some hardcore.
Elon Musk
The CIA too. I think the CIA was in there too.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, they were in there too. Which is bananas. You would think same thing, like hard nosed, like tough people doing hard work
Elon Musk
who can spy on you whenever they.
Elon Musk
And get revenge on you whenever they want.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Pretty wild.
Joe Rogan
And you know, they exist when the President leaves. They stay. People move around. You stay a part of the organization for your entire career. You get deeply entrenched in their system and how things work and who's back to rub and who's. Who's a bad guy, who's a good guy, who's on our side, who's not.
Elon Musk
Yeah. That's scary, actually.
Joe Rogan
What's taking so long with this Epstein files? Yeah.
Elon Musk
What's up with that?
Joe Rogan
What is up with that? It was like.
Joe Rogan
It's like Lucy and the football with Charlie Brown, where she always pulls that football away. It's the same thing. It's like they keep telling us they're gonna release it day one.
Elon Musk
Oh, it was a serious case of no one's being arrested. Ophobia, you know. Well, there's all like, what the fuck's going on?
Joe Rogan
What the fuck is going on? Also, there's this real fear that someone's destroying the evidence. And you keep hearing these stories, unsubstantiated stories.
Joe Rogan
Of, you know, FBI people.
Elon Musk
Where is the evidence? I mean, the guy has, like, tons of videos and recordings.
Elon Musk
I mean, he had all sorts of things.
Elon Musk
Like, there's a mountain of evidence.
Elon Musk
So where's that mountain?
Joe Rogan
Yeah, where's that mountain? And what would be the reason why they would agree. Like, there would have to be something in it for them to agree to not put it out. Right. Like, there has to be some sort of financial entanglement, some sort of relationship with the people that are on that list.
Joe Rogan
That they can provide a value that was big enough for you to not release it or to slow release it or to hope you can get away with, like, putting out some redacted files that don't show anything. Yeah. This is only stage one.
Elon Musk
Stage of redacted. Redacted.
Joe Rogan
Only stage one. Don't worry, the real stuff's coming. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, why wouldn't you just release it all? Like, what. What could possibly be well worth protecting in there?
Elon Musk
I mean, I think I've got probably the same information that. I mean, I'm just reading what's. What's the latest thing on the X? You know, just looking at my X feed and I'm like, yeah, you know, it's a real page turner. And, like, I thought we were going to get some revelations today. I was like, big binders full of stuff.
Elon Musk
There's got to be something in there.
Joe Rogan
Well, there was. All those people that were given a copy of it. They were all, like, waving around like they got the Willy Wonk ticket.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And what happened?
Joe Rogan
Nothing. So I think Laura Loomer released it online, I think.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. She's not very pleased about this. So does anybody find anything in there that's interesting? No, it's all old stuff from 2015 and 20. Okay, what the fuck is going on?
Elon Musk
But then apparently there's that. They discovered a whole bunch of stuff at the Southern District District of New York.
Elon Musk
So that's. And I'm like, and I think, you know, Pam Bondi is actually great and Cash Patel are great, but they're like. They just got there, you know?
Elon Musk
So then they just got there, but they're in a hostile environment. They're not in a friendly environment.
Elon Musk
So, you know, it's like if you suddenly got put in captain of a ship, but the crew was previously your enemy.
Elon Musk
Entire crew was previously your enemy.
Joe Rogan
Right. You know, and you're telling them, give me evidence.
Elon Musk
Yeah, the crew doesn't want to give you the evidence.
Joe Rogan
You guys are all criminals.
Elon Musk
They were, like, your mortal enemies just a moment ago. You just got there.
Elon Musk
So, yeah, I think we got to give, you know, the Attorney General and, you know, new director the FBI, so a little bit of slack here because they literally just got there.
Joe Rogan
I think so, too. But, hey, don't say you're gonna release it on day one, then you shouldn't have said that.
Joe Rogan
And don't say you got a big drop coming tomorrow, and that's some bullshit that's been around forever.
Elon Musk
It's disappointing. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
With that. And where's the JFK files? Where are those? Yeah, let them go.
Elon Musk
They release anything on that front?
Joe Rogan
I don't know. It can't be anything that's gotten to me yet. So nothing's gotten to me yet. It can't be.
Elon Musk
If there's conspiracy evidence, someone's gonna send it to you.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Tim Dillon's gonna text me. 100%. Tim Dillon, Dave Smith. Someone's gonna send.
Elon Musk
Someone's gonna send you the stuff.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. So it hasn't been released yet. Yeah. You would find out. And here's the real question. Like, what could even be in there at this point that they haven't cleared out? If you've got paperwork from 1963, like, what is in there still? What is in there that could possibly be incriminating? That supposedly Trump said.
Joe Rogan
That if you saw what they showed me, you wouldn't release it either. Okay. What the fuck?
Elon Musk
I haven't seen it. So Cash Patel has. Yes.
Joe Rogan
He said he's seen it all. Yeah.
Elon Musk
He just posted to his, like, ex account or something. I mean, I just figured.
Joe Rogan
That sounds like an Elon move. I don't. Yeah, I mean, Director of the FBI. I think he has to go through proper channels. And does he?
Elon Musk
He is the channel.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, but there's rules. Sounds like Trump. Sound like Trump. He needs an executive order.
Elon Musk
What about the storm? I am the storm. I mean, what channels? He is the channel.
Joe Rogan
Well, again, imagine just getting to the hull or just getting to the deck of the ship. And you're the captain.
Joe Rogan
And now you have to figure out who's running things, who's doing this? Where is everything?
Elon Musk
Getting anything done. Like I said, you just joined as captain of a ship where the crew hate your guts.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. They were your enemy.
Elon Musk
Yeah. They were your enemy. They're strongly opposed to anything you want to do.
Elon Musk
And you're trying to give them orders
Joe Rogan
and you're trying to expose them.
Elon Musk
They don't want to be exposed.
Joe Rogan
Right. You're literally. People that are working there are probably a part of this problem.
Elon Musk
I mean, I was reading Onyx that, like, Comey's daughter is, like, the lead prosecutor in the Southern district of New York. Did you read that?
Elon Musk
And. And, like, so obviously there's a bit of an entanglement there.
Elon Musk
Like, what if there's something that, you know, makes. Puts your dad in a bad light?
Joe Rogan
Exactly. Shredder hit that delete.
Joe Rogan
Did you see General Flynn? He was on a podcast, and he spoke directly to James Comey.
Joe Rogan
He said, jim, you're going to jail. And unless you give up someone deeper than you. And you know who that is. You know who I'm talking about. Like, that is wild.
Joe Rogan
To think that the former director of the FBI might be really in that kind of deep shit, and then he really actually was doing some evil, corrupt shit while he was running the FBI.
Elon Musk
I mean, it seems like there's some very shady stuff that's been going on.
Joe Rogan
It seems like it definitely happened in the 60s. Right. Everybody kind of admits to that. They admit the FBI killed Black Panthers. They did a lot of shit. There's a lot of stuff that went on that we know the government did way back in the day. Yeah.
Elon Musk
Why don't we just data dump the files? Just go in there, take photos of all the papers, presumably paper, and just post it online and let the chips fall where they may.
Joe Rogan
Isn't presumably everyone filing cabinet somewhere?
Elon Musk
I don't know. Right. Where is it? Where's it. Where's the magic filing cabinet?
Joe Rogan
How are they hiding it? Who's got access to it?
Joe Rogan
This is what I was hoping day one. I was hoping, but obviously it's taking
Elon Musk
a lot longer than that. So I think part of it is, like, you know, like, let's. Let's say. Let's say you were made direct to the FBI. Okay.
Joe Rogan
I might be able to.
Joe Rogan
That's crazy. Like, literally, you know what's he doing now?
Joe Rogan
He's one of the big dogs, the FBI, but Secret Service guy. Yeah. Legit guy. But people think of him as a Fox News guy, just like Pete Hegseth. Same thing. They don't want to think about his distinguished military career. They want to say, oh, that Fox News guy. Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Elon Musk
I mean, Dan's hardcore. I mean, if he. If it's. If it's reasonably findable, I think he's going to find it.
Elon Musk
Between him and Cash, I mean, like, I think they're going to get stuff.
Joe Rogan
How crazy would it be if they couldn't, though? How crazy would it be if they can't find anything? If it's that.
Joe Rogan
If everybody shut their mouth and everybody covers their ass.
Elon Musk
Like an FBI computer, where you type in the search with the basic mechanism here. Like it's either in a filing cabinet in paper where it's like, you know, maybe there's like, progressive levels of security. You know, like, open this door up, you got to have. Do you have the pass for this level? Yeah, like level unlocked. And there's a level unlocked. And it's like, you get in there and there's black, and it's finally like.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I mean, I wasn't even looking. Laptop. You got to only plug it in. It's in a skiff.
Elon Musk
Yeah. This is why, like, I think, like, a tour of Fort Knox would be awesome. Like a live tour of Fort Knox we actually see. It's like, is the cold there or not? They say it is. Is it real? Or did somebody spray paint some lead?
Joe Rogan
You know, imagine if it's not.
Elon Musk
Imagine if it's not all there. Like, some of it's missing. Where to go?
Joe Rogan
What if a lot of it's missing? What if, like, half of it's missing?
Elon Musk
I mean, how do we even know?
Joe Rogan
They said the last time they let someone look at it was decades ago.
Elon Musk
I believe the last formal audit was in the 50s. So I'm like, okay.
Grok (AI voice)
Oh, my God.
Elon Musk
Just think about all the.
Joe Rogan
Maybe we should check it again.
Joe Rogan
Think about all the other stuff that you pointed out. All the checks that just go out. The NGO payments, the Social Security people. Think about just all that now. Apply that to the gold.
Elon Musk
Absolutely. I just want to emphasize the sheer madness of the government. It's just because. Because they have, like, magic money computers, the checks never bounce for the federal government. So you don't have the normal corrective mechanism that you'd have For a company or for an individual, the checks just always clear. The net result is inflation, which is effectively a tax on everyone. But the Defense Department hasn't passed an audit in I don't know how many years.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, exactly. So it's like you'd have to be frigging Chuck Norris. Only Chuck Norris could get the Defense. Defense Department to pass an audit. You know, type of thing. That's the level of skill you need, you know.
Joe Rogan
Well, that's what's so insane. If you bring it back to the idea that it's a business.
Joe Rogan
This should never be tolerated in any kind of functional business.
Elon Musk
Exactly. So, you know, you know, Pentagon will like their accounting error. Like the stuff that they lose in the couch cushions is like 20, 30 billion dollars a year. They don't know where it went.
Elon Musk
Way to go. And it's gone.
Elon Musk
That's why I said even simple things like just requiring that outgoing payments for the treasury computer have a payment code and a comment of what the payment is about and someone to call about the payment, I think will have very powerful effect in stopping wasteful outflows and stopping fraud.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And here's another way to look at this. Imagine if there are people like you and the DOGE team out there in the world. Imagine if one of those works for an organization like USAID or any other organization and has this understanding of how much fuckery is involved, but they have evil intentions and they're entwined in this system for decades and decades and they've built a career and all the entanglements that come in and they start moving shit around. You could probably do it easy. It sounds like the way you've laid it out, if you were a career person who's in there forever, who knew how everything works, and you were very clever, you could make some shit happen and you could probably do it in conjunction with some people that you know that are forming an ngo. Hey, let's all work together.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And this is the resistance that you're facing.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I think it's the biggest scam of all time.
Joe Rogan
This is not something you ever saw.
Elon Musk
The biggest scam of all ever time
Joe Rogan
ever, of human history, if human history is.
Joe Rogan
I think you're right.
Elon Musk
A trillion dollar scam. There's never been a trillion dollar scam.
Joe Rogan
Now, this is not something that you ever set out to do. You didn't have this as a career Aspiration.
Elon Musk
No, this is the most absurd outcome I can possibly imagine, actually. Also, Doge started as sort of a meme coin. It was like a joke cryptocurrency involving memes and dogs and.
Joe Rogan
Which is so funny that the letters wound up being perfect.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Well, actually, I was originally gonna call it, like, the Government Efficiency Commission, which is very boring name. And then people online were like, no, it needs to be the Department of Government Efficiency. And I was like, you know what? You're right.
Elon Musk
Of course, of course.
Joe Rogan
I mean, it's more evidence of the simulation.
Elon Musk
That little Shibino, like, our mascot is a. Is a cute dog.
Joe Rogan
It's a meme coin. The meme coin's probably worth a lot of money right now, right? Like, every time tweet about, it probably shoots up.
Joe Rogan
The whole meme coin thing is bananas.
Joe Rogan
It is so bananas that people dump real money into these coins and then you could just pump them up and
Elon Musk
sell them a casino or something. I don't know.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's totally.
Elon Musk
And then people just do whatever. The greater fool theory and musical chairs and whoever's like, the last to sit down loses type of thing.
Joe Rogan
And somehow or another, it's still legal,
Elon Musk
I think. Not too many people. I mean. I mean, it's sort of like you go to the casino. Like, you. If you expect to win at the casino, you're being a fool. Right. So I think if you expect to win at meme coins, you're being. It's not. You're being foolish. Yeah.
Elon Musk
But you're not going to win at meme Coins. It's like, it's. But if you want, like, don't sink your life savings into a meme coin.
Joe Rogan
No, but you can gamble a little and you can ride waves and win a little and lose a little.
Elon Musk
If you want to have some fun and don't come, then, you know, play with me and coins.
Joe Rogan
But if you put your family. If you put your family's palm on a meme coin in the Hawk 2,
Elon Musk
the risk of saying something bold and outrageous. Don't bet the farm on a meme coin.
Joe Rogan
The weird one is the pump and dumps, like, the people all the time.
Joe Rogan
And people get shocked that somebody pump and dumped. Like, what is. What are you doing? Did you. Like, I was hoping to dump. I was hoping to make all the money out of this. I can't believe they got me, like.
Joe Rogan
It's just weird that it's legal still.
Elon Musk
I mean, casinos illegal.
Elon Musk
And it is, like, just Lose money at casinos.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, but you can't rig a casino like a pump and dump. You could rig a pump and dump, you know?
Elon Musk
Yeah, I guess so.
Joe Rogan
Like, you could run a real pyramid scheme.
Elon Musk
I mean, the government's one big pyramid scheme, if you ask me.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, well, you can talk.
Elon Musk
Social Security is the. The biggest Ponzi scheme of all time. Right.
Elon Musk
Oh, so. Well, people pay into Social Security and the money goes out of Social Security immediately. But the obligation for Social Security is your entire retirement career. So you're paying. You're paying. Like, if you look at the future obligations of Social Security, it far exceeds the tax revenue. Far. Have you ever looked at the debt clock?
Elon Musk
Okay. There's our present day debt, but then there's our future obligations. So when you look at the future obligations of Social Security, the actual national debt is like double what people think it is because of the future obligations. So basically, people are living way longer than expected and there are fewer babies being born. So you have more people who are retired and live for a long time and get retirement payments. So the future obligations. So however bad the financial situation is right now for the federal government, it will be much worse in the future. At the risk of being a buzzkill here.
Elon Musk
So we better fix what we got right now, because if it's bad now, it's gonna be much worse in the future.
Joe Rogan
There was an interview with this woman who was a whistleblower. Did we ever find out if that was true?
Elon Musk
There's so many whistles being blown, it's hard to keep track.
Joe Rogan
A lot of whistles. This one lady. It was only in one state.
Elon Musk
It was very specific.
Joe Rogan
Right, but it was using Social Security money. Correct. That was her. That was her allegation. So what she was alleging was that she was in charge of turning illegal immigrants into clients. That's what they would call them. And that she would go to them and try to ask them, do you have a headache? Do you have back problems? If you do now, you can be permanently disabled. You get permanent disability. So you get Social Security for life.
Elon Musk
Yes. Not just Social Security, but disability, which is even more.
Joe Rogan
And you get them on the taxpayer dole right away. And they're illegal aliens.
Elon Musk
Yes. Oh. So if I were to say, like, what's at the heart of the sort of, like, why is the Democrat propaganda machine so fired up to destroy me? That's the main reason. The main reason is that. Is that entitlements fraud that includes, like, Social Security, disability, Medicaid, entitlements, fraud for illegal aliens is what is serving as a gigantic magnetic force to pull people in from all around the world and keep them here. Like, basically, if you pay people at a standard of living that is above 90% of Earth, then you have a very powerful incentive for 90% of Earth to come here and to stay here. But if you end the illegal alien fraud, then you turn off that magnet and they leave and they stop coming. And the ones that are here, many of them will simply leave. And if that happens, they will lose a massive number of Democratic voters.
Joe Rogan
And if it didn't happen, they would turn those people into voters.
Joe Rogan
Which they were trying to do.
Elon Musk
They're already telling them so. In New York State, illegal aliens can already vote in state and city elections. A lot of people don't know that. I mean, they're trying to fight that. They're trying to stop that. But it's currently, I think it's like 600,000 are registered to vote illegal aliens in New York.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Well, I mean, if you look at, say, you know, fema, like the agency that was paying for illegal aliens to stay at luxury hotels in New York was fema. That's an agency that's meant to support Americans in distress from natural disasters, was paying for luxury hotels for illegals in New York.
Elon Musk
Yeah. That's a fact. They literally, like, when we stopped that payment, we stopped all those money, because that's obviously an insane way to spend taxpayer money. New York sued the government, sued the federal government to get the money. So you could just look at their lawsuit. They were sending that money. Even after President Trump signed an executive order saying it needs to stop, they still Press send on $80 million to luxury hotels in New York. Your tax money went to pay for illegal aliens in luxury hotels in New York from an agency that is meant to help Americans in distress from natural disasters.
Joe Rogan
Right. And I would like to know how much. And I would like to know how much they spend on North Carolina and how much they spent on Maui.
Elon Musk
Yes, exactly. What's actually happening is they're buying voters. That's really what's happening. It's like a giant voter fraud scam. They're importing voters, and it's really just a matter of time. A lot of people have trouble believing this, but the more you look at it, the more you will realize just how much of a problem this is and how it's not just real, it is an attempt to destroy democracy in America. That's what, in my view, is what it really is. Like if you take the sort of seven swing states, often the margin of victory there is like maybe 20,000 votes. If you put 200,000 illegals in there and they have like a 80% likelihood of voting down and it's only a matter of time before they become citizens, then those swing states will not be swing states in the future. And if they are not swing states, we'll be a permanent one party state country, permanent deep blue socialist state. That's what America will become.
Joe Rogan
And that was the game plan.
Elon Musk
That was the game plan. That is still the game plan. And so they almost succeeded. If the machine of which the Kamala puppet was the representation had won, that's what would have happened. The reason I went so hardcore for Trump was because to me this was a fork in the road. Like a very obvious fork in the road. If they had another four years, they would legalize enough illegals in the swing states to make the swing states not swing states. They would just, they would be blue states. Then they would win the presidential, they'd win the House, the Senate and the presidency. They would then make district, you know, D.C. into a state, maybe Puerto Rico, get four extra senators, pack the Supreme Court. So then you'll have the House, Judiciary, Senate and presidency all blue. And then they will keep importing more illegals to cement that outcome. Basically what happened in California.
Elon Musk
It would have been the end. That's why I went so hardcore for Trump. It was otherwise been the end. And that's why the Democrat machine is so intent on destroying me.
Joe Rogan
It's just so fascinating that people can't see this.
Elon Musk
I mean, I invite people to do their research. The more they do their research, the more they will see that what I'm saying is absolutely true. It's like, just do the research.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. It's such a bad idea, even for the Democrats, which is what they don't understand. Like it's.
Elon Musk
Yeah, it's not ultimately gonna work out.
Joe Rogan
No, it's the same people.
Joe Rogan
It's just they're doing it under the guise that they're the kind, compassionate, progressive people.
Joe Rogan
But the same outcome takes place. It's just about control. They. And they probably institute some central bank, digital currency and some social credit score system.
Elon Musk
And censorship, of course.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, of course. Well, that was the big fear coming into this election, was that if they can't censor things like we talked about it before, but there was two major forks in the road. The big one was Trump didn't get shot. The other Big one was, you buy Twitter, and if those two things don't happen, the whole world looks different.
Elon Musk
We don't want to be on that timeline now.
Joe Rogan
We don't want to have only one side represented, because guess what? They will hijack that side. Whatever it is, they will hijack that side and use it for money and control. And that's what it's all about. It's not about good people versus bad people. It's a bullshit shell game.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, I think these things are actually. It's easy to understand if you look at basic incentives. The basic incentive here is the more illegals that Democrats can bring in, the more likely they are to win. So that's what they're going to do. That's what they have been doing. And it worked in California. California, super majority them. And look at all the companies that are leaving California. Yeah, I mean, in N out just announced they're leaving their headquarters, leaving California.
Joe Rogan
They're moving to Tennessee.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah. So. And California made healthcare free for illegals as of last year. So. And that obviously, that's a gigantic magnet for more illegals. Like, and this is not a thing you can solve simply with money, because what happens is you simply have more patients than a doctor can possibly see. And you can't just, you know, make doctors out of nothing like the. So sometimes people are like, oh, it's just a money thing. No, it takes a long time for somebody to become a doctor, you know, 30 years. And so what actually happens in California is that there are too many patients for the doctors to see. So then the average citizen in California suffers as a result. Now, the elite in California are fine because they have private doctors. You know, they can just pay for the best doctors. So the elite in California are doing fine, but your average citizen in California is not doing fine. And the tax burden for health care for illegals was supposed to be 3 billion. I think they now estimate it's 9 billion. But that number will scale to infinity. Basically. It's like, why not?
Elon Musk
If you need any operation at all, come to California and have it be free. Right from anywhere on earth.
Joe Rogan
And the people that want to look at it in the most charitable way, they say, oh, well, these people are hardworking, good people and they're the backbone of our city, and they should have access to all the things that we have access to. And I just don't think they understand that it's a political pawn. I don't think they understand it's a political game. This is not done for compassion and kindness.
Joe Rogan
This is just done to ensure that it stays blue.
Joe Rogan
And it's essentially a bribery with your tax dollars.
Elon Musk
Yes. This is why the Dems will not even deport criminals.
Elon Musk
Because every criminal deported is a lost vote. So even if somebody is illegal with a criminal record and commits crime in America, they are still were not being deported.
Joe Rogan
And then on top of that, California made it actually illegal to ask for ID when people vote.
Elon Musk
Yes. California and New York, you are not allowed to show your ID when you vote. I just want to be clear so everyone understands this. In California, New York, you are not allowed to show your ID even if you want to.
Joe Rogan
Right. Why would that ever be a good idea? I mean, if you wanted to do.
Elon Musk
If you're trying to facilitate fraud in elections, it's a great idea.
Joe Rogan
That's the only reason?
Joe Rogan
There's no other reason logically why that would be a good idea.
Elon Musk
It's for fraud. It's like, wake up, sheeple.
Elon Musk
Like, let's say you wanted to commit fraud. What are the things you would do?
Elon Musk
You would say you don't need ID and you can mail in your ballot
Joe Rogan
and we'll give you free health care. Yes. Stay here.
Joe Rogan
Stay here. I know it's on fire, but stay here.
Elon Musk
I mean, in this case, it being on fire is not just a metaphor in California.
Elon Musk
It's just like goddamn entire neighborhoods burning down.
Joe Rogan
It's just once they allowed people to vote that are not legal in California. Once you. If you're. If you're gonna do that, it's. It's over.
Elon Musk
Exactly. There's. There's no coming back from that.
Joe Rogan
The numbers are just. No. People are so indoctrinated, too. There's so many people that no matter what they think voting Republican means you're an asshole.
Joe Rogan
And they won't do it. They won't do it. They'll put their fucking rainbow flag on their porch and they'll just ride it right into the beach.
Elon Musk
Civilizational suicide.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Right to the rocks. Bang, crash the boat.
Elon Musk
I mean, there's a guy who post on X who's great God Godside.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. He's been on the podcast a bunch of times.
Elon Musk
Yeah, he's awesome.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's great.
Elon Musk
And he talks about, you know, basically suicidal empathy.
Elon Musk
Like, if there's, like, there's so much empathy that you actually suicide yourself.
Elon Musk
So that we've got civilizational suicidal empathy going on. And it's like, I believe in empathy. Like, I Think you should care about other people, but you need to have empathy for civilization as a whole and not commit to a civilizational suicide.
Joe Rogan
Also, don't let someone use your empathy against you so they can completely control your state and then do an insanely bad job of managing it and never get removed.
Elon Musk
The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy. The empathy exploit. They're exploiting a bug in Western civilization, which is the empathy response. And I think empathy is good, but you need to think it through and not just be programmed like a robot.
Joe Rogan
Right. Understand when empathy has been actually used as a tool.
Elon Musk
Yes. Like it's weaponized. Empathy is the issue. Weaponized empathy. And.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, and it's also the rigid adherence to that liberal ideology. Like, you can't switch sides over there. Like California. If you're a part of that whole tech, Hollywood, entertainment, any of those circles, you're on the left, like, almost wholly, almost completely.
Elon Musk
It's borderline illegal to be a Republican in California. Like in San Francisco or la. It's borderline illegal to be a Republican.
Joe Rogan
You're certainly shunned.
Elon Musk
No, look, I mean, like San Francisco, you could shoot heroin while taking a dump on the mayor's car in front of City Hall. Okay. And nothing would happen to you. If you walk down the street with a MAGA hat, you're gonna get attacked. It's insane.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's insane. It's also so Orwellian that a hat that says Make America great again would cause people to have a violent reaction. Like, aren't you American? Wouldn't just. Just as a whole, like the saying, wouldn't that be a good thing for everyone? Make America great again. But because it's attached to Donald Trump and that red hat, you'll get maced for wearing that red hat. They will make America worse by beating you. So it's like, it's an evil thing. They're doing a violent assault in America because you want to make America great again. It's like a scene in a book. It doesn't seem like it could be that ridiculous. Like, remember when all lives matter would get you fired?
Elon Musk
Which is insane.
Joe Rogan
Insane people got fired because they said all lives matter, which is a very
Elon Musk
reasonable thing to say.
Joe Rogan
How reasonable is that? Yes, that's essentially saying everybody matters.
Elon Musk
But that's not all you're saying.
Joe Rogan
That's not what you were supposed to say. You had to say black lives matter, which of course they do. If you say all lives matter, everybody matters. Yes, but the idea of being a colorblind society was completely abandoned. Somewhere around 2012. Ish.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I mean, I sort of can trace it to. When did the gun emoji get nerfed? You know, when did it turn into a squirt gun?
Joe Rogan
That was a couple of years ago.
Elon Musk
That was like, 2016, I think.
Joe Rogan
Was it? Yeah, yeah, it became a squirt gun. Can you bring it back to.
Elon Musk
Yeah, no, no. Right now, if you use a gun emoji on X, Apple will insist that it'd be a squirt gun, and then the X app turns it back into a. A 1911.
Joe Rogan
Oh, that's great.
Elon Musk
So you can. You can actually, you know, have a 1911 gun. We reverted the Apple change inside the app.
Joe Rogan
Oh, that's hilarious. That's hilarious that it's that thing. So offensive. The gun and then the pregnant man. Both of those got me, you motherfuckers.
Elon Musk
I mean, I like that meme where it's like the people telling you that what you're hearing is disinformation are the same people that did the pregnant man emoji. Yes.
Elon Musk
Think about that.
Joe Rogan
Well, also, the same people that say a woman attacked a Tesla factory. Yeah, the woman.
Joe Rogan
It's a dude. Like, really obvious dude. Really big.
Elon Musk
Mentally ill dude.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, Mentally ill dude with a wig on. Say that.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. But NBC, even Fox looking at the
Elon Musk
picture, and you're like, yo, this has got a. This. This is a dude with a strong jawline.
Joe Rogan
He's wearing woman face,
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's a buff dude wearing woman face. That's not. That's not a woman. Yeah.
Elon Musk
And they're like, saying, one shot for disinformation. I'm like, what are you talking about? So this is bullshit.
Joe Rogan
It's just more evidence of the virus, though, right? Like, it killed objectivity, killed reality, and it demanded strict adherence or you were attacked.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Yeah. Any questioning of it would result in being ostracized.
Joe Rogan
Do you. What kind of responsibility do you feel like knowing that if you didn't take over Twitter and turn it into X, if that didn't happen, I really think the world's a very different place right now. Like, how long have you owned it for?
Elon Musk
Two couple years, basically.
Joe Rogan
Imagine a couple years of it being run the way it was run before and probably accelerating.
Elon Musk
I mean, my account would have been suspended long ago. For sure.
Joe Rogan
Just for the disinformation.
Elon Musk
Yeah, it would have been.
Joe Rogan
Trump would have never come back. Alex Jones would have definitely never been back.
Joe Rogan
Does that weigh on you? Like, I would feel like that would be a fucking heavy responsibility.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to keep civilization going here, you know, for longer. So I think we at least want to build a city on Mars and become a multi planet civilization, which I think would be incredibly important in ensuring the long term survival of civilization.
Joe Rogan
Are you still rescuing those people that are stuck in the space station?
Elon Musk
Yeah, that's coming up in a couple weeks, I think.
Joe Rogan
Whoa. They've been up there for how long, Jamie? They were supposed to be there for a couple days, right.
Elon Musk
Actually probably four weeks. They're supposed to be there. They're supposed to be up there for like eight days.
Elon Musk
And they've been up there for like eight months, so a little longer than expected. Fuck, yeah.
Joe Rogan
What is it gonna be like for those people when they get back? They're gonna be a wreck for a long time, right? Yeah.
Elon Musk
If longer you stay up there, you get, you know, sort of in zero g, you get increased bone loss. So it ended up being like this political football and sort of sort of hotly contested topic. We offered to bring them back early. This offer was rejected by the Biden administration.
Elon Musk
For political reasons.
Joe Rogan
That's so crazy.
Elon Musk
There's no way that they're going to make anyone who's supporting Trump look good.
Joe Rogan
What do you think they would have done if they had won? Well, how would they get those people back?
Elon Musk
No, they can only get them back with, with a SpaceX spacecraft. But they pushed the return date past the inauguration date.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, so they would have let you do it. But after the wow. And so it would have been them authorizing you.
Elon Musk
There isn't anyone else to do it.
Joe Rogan
NASA can't get them.
Elon Musk
Only the SpaceX Dragon spacecraft is the only one that is considered safe enough to bring them back. So NASA concluded that the Boeing spacecraft was not safe. So that's why they're stuck there.
Joe Rogan
And you can't ask Russia to help.
Elon Musk
That would be awkward.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Be a nice thing if they did. They said, guys, we'll help.
Elon Musk
I think that for enough money they would.
Elon Musk
Yeah, but they would obviously treat it as a propaganda victory and charge crazy money.
Joe Rogan
It's just disgusting that they would use that as a political tool.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah. So. Well, they were also. The Biden administration was also suing SpaceX. They had this massive lawsuit against SpaceX for SpaceX not hiring Asylum seekers.
Elon Musk
So people like, say, like, oh, Elon's making it Up. This Biden administration wasn't against SpaceX. I'm like, Bro, the Department of justice had a massive lawsuit against SpaceX for not hiring asylum seekers, even though it is illegal for us to hire anyone who is not a permanent resident. So it is both. There's law that says you have to hire asylum seekers, but there's also a law that says anyone hired by a rocket company, which is an advanced weapons technology, must be a permanent resident. An asylum seeker is not a permanent resident. So it is both legal and illegal to hire asylum seekers. So why would the Biden administration launch a massive lawsuit? Again, this is public information. It's not like my imagination. Why would they launch such a massive lawsuit against SpaceX? They're extremely antagonistic.
Joe Rogan
It just doesn't make any sense that that could ever even get past the first day of someone looking at it. If it's both illegal and you're trying to enforce it, like you can't enforce it. Yes, this is an advanced weapons company. This is crazy. Yes, it should be like this. Throw this out.
Elon Musk
There's, in fact, there's like, international traffic in arms regulations is like a law that is there to ensure that if only permanent residents of the United States can work at advanced weapons companies, rockets are advanced weapons. So the same is true of, like, if it's like nuclear or, you know, some like, you know, bioweapon thing or something like that. So. Because obviously, if someone were to work its basics and then go leave and go to North Korea or Iran, they could build missile technology that could, you know, destroy the United States. So that's why you're not allowed to hire people who are permanent residents. Logical.
Joe Rogan
Logical. So is that lawsuit still pending?
Elon Musk
It was just dismissed.
Joe Rogan
How long was it going on for?
Joe Rogan
That's the other thing that drives me crazy like that. People don't understand that if you sanction lawfare like that, if you sanction attacking your political enemies, someone's going to do that to you. Like, if the wrong people get in office, if new people get in, four years from now, eight years from now, who knows who it's going to be? You've already set a precedent. You've already attacked someone, charged them with 34 felonies where they're really just misdemeanors, and they're also past the statute of limitation. And now you're talking all over the news that this is a convicted felon. Convicted felon. They kept saying convicted felon, convicted felon, and everybody knows what it is. Yes, it's terrifying. It's terrifying they could do it so brazenly to a guy who was the president for four years.
Elon Musk
Right. That lawsuit was funded by Reid Hoffman, who is a major Dem donor and also an Epstein client. The plot thickens.
Joe Rogan
The plot thickens. Jesus Christ.
Joe Rogan
it's just. It's so blatant. It's like, so obvious. The SpaceX lawsuit, the Trump stuff, it's just. It's so obvious.
Elon Musk
Yes. Like, known Epstein clients who are obviously extremely powerful. The powerful politically and very wealthy are Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, and Reid Hoffman and some others, too, but those three. So, you know, why was Reid Hoffman so intent on destroying Trump?
Joe Rogan
Do you think it's because they're worried about the list coming out?
Elon Musk
Yeah, one of the reasons. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm like, this is, you know. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
So it's so frustrating to be sitting in a situation where the list isn't coming out.
Elon Musk
Well, better come out. I mean, hopefully tomorrow.
Joe Rogan
Well, I mean, why'd they release bullshit today?
Joe Rogan
What's the point in giving these people, like, a happy folder to wave around in front of the camera with nothing in it? The.
Joe Rogan
Doesn't make any sense. It's not encouraging.
Elon Musk
Like I said, the tough thing that they've got is, you know, they've been made captain of a ship with a hostile crew.
Elon Musk
So they don't have, like, you know, it's not like you have, like, magical powers. You get made captain of a triple the hostile crew. You still have a hostile crew. Right. You've got to bring in people who are going to, you know, be helpful as opposed to obstructionist.
Elon Musk
So. But, yeah, I think the public will be rightly frustrated if there is. If no one is prosecuted for the Epstein client list. No one at all. Which, you know, like, is it, you know, like, at least, I don't know, the top five or something? Like some number. Should. There should at least be an attempted prosecution of the worst offenders.
Joe Rogan
Well, particularly if Ghislaine Maxwell is in jail for sex trafficking.
Joe Rogan
Because, like. Well, that means sex trafficking occurred. Right. So she was in. She's in jail for it.
Elon Musk
who are the clients?
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. How do you put someone in jail and you don't even name the clients? That sounds kind of insane, I think.
Elon Musk
Yes, it would. Yes.
Joe Rogan
Just stunning that they've been able to hold it back for so long. It's really kind of amazing, like, when people say that people can't keep secrets. What the fuck are you Talking about, look at this.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I mean a bunch of these things are not like it's common knowledge, but we just, we don't actually have the proof.
Elon Musk
So the proof is there. I mean, there's lots of videos. Yeah, there's lots. I mean the. Dude, it's like a mountain of like. Whenever they raided Epstein's place, there would have been like a mountain of evidence. Where is that mountain? Right.
Joe Rogan
What'd you do with it?
Elon Musk
Yeah, like who took possession of the evidence? Yeah, specifically. Right. The individuals.
Joe Rogan
Where are the tapes?
Joe Rogan
How many levels of clearance do I have to get to get into the vault?
Elon Musk
Yeah, well, Yeah, yeah. You know what we need are people who are really good with computers.
Elon Musk
Really good with.
Joe Rogan
Was this technology. That's when they raided his home.
Joe Rogan
That's when they. On the island. They were there then. Yeah. They got everything, I'm sure.
Elon Musk
I mean there must have been so much stuff on that island.
Joe Rogan
They must have been. And if it wasn't there, where was it?
Joe Rogan
What? You know, it has to be uploaded somewhere. There has to be some sort of a chain of evidence. Yeah, a chain of custody.
Elon Musk
It's got to be a mountain of evidence.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. The other thing they're going to Talk about is UAPs. They're going to release all the UAP information. So you're the guy to ask about this. What, what, if any possibility is there that there is some sort of advanced propulsion system technology that's being worked on in secret and that they're trying to cover this up with this talk of aliens and alien tech and not of this world? And is it possible that there's some sort of very secret program that's going on in cahoots with some defense contractors that are developing advanced propulsion systems that they're using for these drones?
Elon Musk
I mean, SpaceX, you know, my company SpaceX has the most advanced rocket technology in the world. I think I'd know.
Elon Musk
And to the best of my knowledge, there is not any magic. There's not like some super advanced propulsion technology.
Joe Rogan
There have been people who have theorized different gravity drives and different things. Is there anything that's ever gotten past the theoretical stage? No, nothing.
Elon Musk
Well, there's nothing even that I'm aware of that works in theory. It's not like I would like this to exist. To be clear. I would like this to exist and I have the. From a security clearance standpoint, I have top top secret. There is. I have equivalent of like an all access pass from a security clearance standpoint. So I don't think they're hiding it from me. Basically. I don't think they, they could
Joe Rogan
unless it's completely in these weapons manufacturing corporations.
Elon Musk
I mean, I know these weapons manufacturing companies like Boeing, Lockheed and Northrop. I mean, yeah, they do some interesting things, but they do not have, there's no breakthrough that they have. So I'm confident they do not have a breakthrough. When you hear people like, why don't they just compete with SpaceX and make a better rocket? In which case, you know, right, they can make. Why are they holding back on making a lot of money from beating SpaceX with better rockets?
Joe Rogan
My thought was that what if it's just a drone and you can't have a biological entity inside of it because it just bursts from the fucking speed that it's moving at, that a human couldn't tolerate the amount of force. So they're just drones?
Elon Musk
I don't think so.
Joe Rogan
So what do you think? People like Ryan Graves.
Elon Musk
Commander DAVID I want cool things to exist, right? Like, say, like, do I want UFOs to exist? Yes, I want UFOs to exist. Because that would be really interesting.
Elon Musk
Yeah, it'll be cool. It's a more boring world where UFOs don't exist. Or like flying, like advanced propulsion stuff doesn't exist. That's. If it doesn't exist, that's more boring. I'd like to. It'd be more interesting if it did exist. I'd like it to exist. I hope we find something, but I have not seen SpaceX launches 90% of all satellite mass to orbit. So if you take all of Earth's rocket launchers, my company has a 90% market share of Earth. China does about 5% and the rest of the world does, including the Boeing, Lockheed and Northrop, and everyone does 5%. So why wouldn't they use this to defeat SpaceX?
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. Why would they hold that? No, listen, that's why I asked you. It would make sense. What do you think these people are saying?
Elon Musk
They're launching a rocket every two days.
Joe Rogan
But what do you think these people are saying? When. When you have reliable people like Commander David Fravor, who had that infamous Tick tock tic Tac experience off the coast of San Diego, where they got this thing on video. They tracked it going 50,000ft above sea level to 50ft in like a second. Okay, yeah, yeah. And then they also have video evidence of this thing accelerating at a great speed. Eyewitness accounts of 2 different jets.
Elon Musk
Sure. I mean, can we. Does anyone have A high res video or photo of this thing.
Joe Rogan
Well, there's a video of this thing where they're locked onto it and then it takes off, it shoots off the frame. It's like whatever the systems they use on fighter jets in 2004, essentially like Windows 95.
Elon Musk
It's like somebody did a curve of like the resolution of UFOs and the resolution of cameras. UFO resolution has stayed flat.
Elon Musk
Despite megapixels and cameras going like, you know, super high.
Joe Rogan
Well, according to Christopher Mellon.
Elon Musk
Why are they still blurry?
Joe Rogan
Christopher Mellon who worked in the State Department said that they have high resolution photos and videos of these things. And that's all that he's seen it. It's all locked away. Whenever people say that to me I'm like, don't even tell me that. Then don't.
Elon Musk
Unless you have just leak it, for God's sake.
Joe Rogan
Put it out there. Yeah, like let it slip.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I mean there's a couple photos, they're grainy. There's not one thing that I've ever looked at and go, holy fuck, that's it. That's what I've been looking for.
Elon Musk
Ask our Grok AI right now to create a high res image of an alien spacecraft, you know, over Austin.
Elon Musk
And it's gonna do a great job. So why would we not have at least that, right?
Joe Rogan
Yeah, but I want to believe. That's the problem. My brain starts going, oh come on, this is no fun. I want it to be real. I want there to be at least be some advanced propulsion system. If not, like what are all these people seeing? Like what is happening if we're not being occasionally visited by things that are smart enough to hide?
Elon Musk
We might be. These aliens are very subtle.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, you keep saying that. It's a good, good line. It's a solid line because it's pretty accurate.
Elon Musk
I just want to see some high risk video of aliens.
Joe Rogan
Okay, how are they just evading all the cameras, if you think about that and the ones that you do get them on, that's just like some far away light that's moving weird and it could be a lot of things, but I want to believe.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, I mean there have been like multiple times where, you know, the Air Force or Navy is has called SpaceX and said they think they've seen aliens. And we're like, was it at this time on this date in this location? They're like, yes. How do you know that's us? That's our satellites, that's our satellites. They're like, no, they're not. I'm like, yeah, they're definitely our satellites.
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah, people see the SpaceX satellites all the time whizzing by.
Elon Musk
Yeah, they're our satellites. And they are moving at 16,000 miles an hour. It's pretty fast.
Joe Rogan
And there's also stuff that the United States government does have that gets mistaken for UFOs. I remember the first time I saw a stealth bomber. We were filming Fear Factor. It was like right after 2003, like right after the, the war had broken off and they were flying a stealth bomber down in Palmdale. I was like, holy shit. Like, if I didn't know what that was, I would 100% think that's from another world. Fucking cool. Yeah, really cool. I mean, it doesn't look like a human's. It looks like something from Battlestar Galactica, you know?
Elon Musk
It does look. Yeah, it does look awesome. I mean, they're not stealthy against any advanced radar system, by the way. That doesn't work.
Joe Rogan
It doesn't work anymore. Was it old school stuff?
Elon Musk
They're only stealthy against old radars. Oh, okay. I mean, you can still see them. Like, they're not invisible, right? They're not like, oh, it's not like, you know, cloaking device from Star Trek.
Joe Rogan
Did you see when me and Lex, we, we watched the, the rocket get caught live while it was happening. That, to me was one of the. To see it actually, I've seen videos of it happen, but to see it actually live.
Joe Rogan
Was one of the coolest fucking things. Like, wow, we are in the future.
Elon Musk
Right? I mean, everybody else can do that.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it's true. Nobody else could do that. That's fact. Yeah, it's pretty wild.
Elon Musk
It's because I'm an alien. What's this time you. I'm an alien. And I keep trying telling people I'm an alien, but they don't believe me.
Elon Musk
Okay, thank you. I believe you. That's my business.
Joe Rogan
My suspicion all along was that you
Elon Musk
were trying to get back to my home planet.
Joe Rogan
You're a friendly alien. Like, it's nothing wrong with aliens. I like people from everywhere.
Joe Rogan
Even other planets. What's next? Like, now that you can do that and you can catch rockets? What's like the ultimate expression of rocket technology? Like what, what comes after this?
Elon Musk
Well, I mean, the fundamental breakthrough we're aiming for at SpaceX is a fully and rapidly reusable orbital rocket where both stages are fully and rapidly reusable. With our Falcon rocket, we are able to reuse the main stage and the nose cone. But we're not able to reuse the upper stage. And it still takes us at least a few days from when the main stage lands to when we can fly it again. So it's not fully reusable because we lose the upper stage, which cost $10 million to build. And, and then the main stage, it's not as reusable as like an aircraft. You can't just like refuel it and fly it. Requires work for a couple days. But the starship design is the first design that is capable of full and rapid reusability, where that is one of the possible outcomes. And once you have full and rapid reusability, the cost of access to space drops by a factor of 100. It's like 100 times cheaper by some metrics. It's 1,000 times cheaper. And then when you factor in orbital refilling, so you refill in orbit, it can drop the cost of going cost per ton to the surface of Mars by a factor of 10,000. Whoa. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
So what has to improve in order to make it reusable?
Elon Musk
Well, There's some like, we're pretty close to being able to rapidly reuse the booster for starship. That's why, you know, it comes back and gets caught by the arms, and then the arms place it back in the launch mount. So now there's still, you know, we have a little bit of engine damage, we got a little bit of heat shield damage. There's like, there's like tweaks that are needed, but we're pretty close to achieving full and rapid reusability of the booster, the ship. We, I mean, I think we'll achieve reusability of the ship this year. And I think we'll achieve rapid reusability of the whole stack ship and booster next year. This is the fundamental breakthrough required for life to become multi planetary.
Joe Rogan
And what needs to improve in order to make it reusable? What's wrong with it?
Elon Musk
Right now on the ship side, the toughest problem is the heat shield. So no one has ever developed a fully reusable orbital heat shield, because when you come in from orbital velocity, you come in like a flaming meteor, like you're just a raging ball of fire. And it's hard to have a heat shield that doesn't partially melt or get destroyed in that process. You know, that wasn't a problem we were able to solve with Falcon 9. That's why the upper stage burns up on reentry with starship. The ship portion, you Got the booster and you got the ship. We've got to solve the making a fully reusable orbital heat shield, a problem that has never been solved before. For a while there, I was like, I'm not sure this is solvable at this point. I think it is solvable. It requires detailed iteration on the heat shield tiles. I mean, we vertically integrated the manufacturing of the heat shield tiles because there was no supplier that could provide us with the materials that were needed. So. You need to make essentially this very fine vermicelli of glass and aluminum oxide fibers. Aluminum oxide is basically sapphire. So it's like glass and sapphire, very fine fibers in exactly the right geometry with special coatings in order to have the heat shield tile be reusable. Like, not melt, but not be so brittle that it gets damaged on ascent or descent. Like, it can't be as, you know, it's kind of like almost the brittleness of a coffee cup type of thing. And the rocket's shaking like hell. So you got this thing like you saw it firsthand. Like, imagine you're at ground zero of that rocket. Like, you feel how much shaking it was when you're like five miles away. Imagine if you're right there, you know, so you got, you're shaking these things that are like, as brittle as a coffee cup, trying not to have them crack or break and then not have them melt. You've got several thousand of these things, and if even a few of them break, it's not reusable.
Joe Rogan
So is there innovation that's being done in the materials technology at SpaceX, where you're constantly trying to find and tweak a better version of this?
Elon Musk
Yes, that's a very difficult problem. It's a problem no one has ever solved. So we've got to get the exact right materials, combination the right molecules in the right shape, and then apply that heat shield perfectly to the rocket with no mistakes. There's a reason that no one solved this before. It's a very difficult problem. So like I said, we had to vertically integrate the entire manufacturing of the tile from basic raw materials to a finished tile. Like, build the entire supply chain from basic raw materials. So you're just inputting silicon and aluminum oxides.
Joe Rogan
And what is the difference between the way you guys do it versus the way they used to do it for the space shuttle?
Elon Musk
Well, I mean, the space shuttle, like space shuttle Leading edge, used like quite dense carbon carbon tiles. Like it was. They're like basically thick and heavy, but also subject to cracking. That's like what happens? The foam broke off and it hit the tile. Cracked the tile. Then on entry, the tiles that have been cracked or broken weren't able to shield the shuttle. And so the plasma got in and melted the primary structure and the whole space shuttle broke apart.
Elon Musk
So you basically can't have something that's as brittle, you know, brittle like the space shuttle.
Joe Rogan
There's footage of that, right?
Elon Musk
Yeah. And rain debris over the whole United States. So they got almost all the pieces. The full technical explanation would, I think, be understood by about six people listening to this. There was a lot of brilliant engineering. The space shuttle tiles. And a bunch of. The heat shielding wasn't even tiles. It was actually silica blankets, like, you know, felt blankets, essentially. If you look closely, you'll see it actually is. They're actually heat blankets, not tiles in some areas. But they would have cracked tiles and they would have. Occasionally the tiles would fall off. There were a few close calls where tiles fell off, but they weren't in a super vulnerable position on the space shuttle. But it would take them several months, like eight, nine months to refurbish a space shuttle between each flight. So it was not reusable, really, and certainly wasn't rapid. So, like I said, a very hard problem you've got to have. You've also got to sort of attach the tiles in a way that enables the structure underneath to move, to expand and contract, even though you've got these very rigid tiles. So, like the main. The tanks which take on cryogenic propellant will contract when you put in the cryogenic propellant. But then when you come in and you get very hot, they will expand. So now you're expanding, you're contracting and expanding the gap between these rigid tiles for how much? It varies depending on where you are on the vehicle. So if you're in the cryogenic tank section, I mean, you can see like a 10, 20% difference in the gap.
Elon Musk
It's pretty significant. Yeah. It's enough that you can't just put all the tile. You can't just jam the tiles together. If you put them. If you actually butted them up, they would all crack because there's too much movement. There's also some amount of body bending. So as the ship is like ascending, when the engines steer, there's a little bit of movement. So if the tiles are too close together, they'll essentially just crack and snap.
Joe Rogan
You have to have a gap. Like how a plane.
Elon Musk
Yeah, like plane wing will move. Plane body will move too.
Elon Musk
You have to have some Gap. But if you have too much of a gap, then the heat gets, gets past the tile and melts the structure.
Elon Musk
It's a hard problem.
Joe Rogan
And how large are these tiles?
Elon Musk
I mean they're like that big.
Elon Musk
Well, they're not all exactly the same size, but yeah, we have sort of
Joe Rogan
a hexagonal tile and they have to essentially be. You can't like 3D print the whole thing. You can't have one structure. It has to be tiles because it has to have that ability to move.
Elon Musk
Well, there's not a 3D printer that's. I mean the biggest ones are like maybe three feet. You know, you can't 3D print it. Nor would you. You have to have something that can move.
Elon Musk
It has to be able to flex. Like I said, you got expansion and contraction. You really drive like you're. You're putting in liquid oxygen, which is like minus 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Actually we subcool it to minus 330 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's very cold. And then it will be several hundred degrees, maybe 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Potentially in went on re entry. So you get this huge temperature swing. So the thermal expansion is substantial and the whole. And you're thermal expansion and contraction combined with body bending. So you have to take the worst case body bending and thermal expansion contraction. This is a very hard problem.
Elon Musk
Delicate balance.
Joe Rogan
But you're confident that you guys are
Elon Musk
going to be able to crack it at this point? I'm confident that it is solvable. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
It just needs a certain amount of versions of it. That's why when these things blow up, you're like, yeah, we expect them to blow up.
Elon Musk
Yeah. What would be really helpful is for us to get the ship back so we can study where we had cracked tiles or lost tiles. Why did we, you know, why did we have a cracked or lost tiles was because maybe the tiles were. The gap was too big, too small. Maybe there was a height difference between the tiles. Maybe we need to change the chemical composition. You know, there's. We just want. If we can get the damn shift back intact, we can. We can iterate a lot better. Which. We'll get it back intact. So I think we'll get it back intact this year. But that's why I think we'll probably recover the ship sometime this year and then we might be able to refly1, but probably with a fair bit of work by the end of this year. But it's going to Take us many iterations before we can achieve rapid reusability. Where the ship comes back, lands, gets caught like the booster with the arms, and then the arms place it on top of the booster and it launches again. Whoa. So like I said, that's, you know, reduced cost of access to space by a factor of 100.
Joe Rogan
And what is the process of returning these people that are stuck in the space station?
Elon Musk
Well, we send SpaceX Dragon to the space station all the time. And we've now taken people to orbit and back. We've taken over 50 people, over 50 astronauts.
Joe Rogan
So it's just a matter of doing it.
Joe Rogan
And is it a matter of waiting for the.
Elon Musk
We do it routinely, basically. It's not a. We've been doing this for a few years.
Joe Rogan
So when is this rescue mission going to launch?
Elon Musk
Yeah, probably about four weeks or so. It's depending on weather and other considerations. It's about a month away.
Joe Rogan
Well, that'll be, I'm sure, a welcome moment for those poor people that are stuck up there.
Elon Musk
So it's a bit of a political football. So they're not going to complain?
Joe Rogan
No, I'm sure they.
Elon Musk
Political football, but obviously we could have brought them back way sooner.
Joe Rogan
That's so fucked up. So let's take it past the point where you have these scales, you have reusable ship and you've got it dialed in. Then what are the steps? What's next step after that? Is it an unmanned voyage to Mars?
Elon Musk
First unmanned flight of Mars. The Earth and Mars orbits synchronize every two years or every 26 months technically. So the next orbital synchronization is November of next year and you can launch plus minus a month roughly. So we'd have to launch in November or December of next year. So the, the default plan is to launch hopefully several starships to Mars at the end of next year.
Joe Rogan
And what would they be doing?
Elon Musk
Well, at first we're just going to try to land on Mars and see if we succeed in landing. Do we succeed in landing? Like let's say we were able to send five ships. Do all five land intact or do we add some craters to Mars? If we add some craters, we've got to be a bit more cautious about sending people, you know, so we gotta make sure the thing lands safely.
Joe Rogan
How does it land on Mars?
Elon Musk
With our rocket thrusters.
Joe Rogan
So it'll just land?
Elon Musk
Oh, we'll add legs.
Joe Rogan
Okay, it'll just land and have legs. And so it'll be remote controlled from
Elon Musk
Earth or just autonomous?
Joe Rogan
Autonomous completely.
Elon Musk
Mars is you can't remote control things from Earth because Mars too far. Yeah, it's too far. Speed of light, you have speed of light constraints. So Mars at closest approach is roughly four light minutes. And when it's on the other side of the sun, it's about 12 light minutes. So you know, round trip would be like 40 minutes. Best case if Mars is on the other side of the sun.
Joe Rogan
So once you do that, then how long do you think before you start sending people up there?
Elon Musk
Well, we're going to try to go as fast as possible. You can think of this as really a race against time. Can we make Mars self sufficient before civilization has some sort of future fork in the road where there's either like a war, nuclear war or something, or we get hit by a meteor or simply civilization might just die with a whimper in adult diapers instead of with a bang. I think we can do this in, I don't know, at least I think we do it within 15 Earth Mars synchronization events. So basically like 30ish years. If we have an exponential increase in, if every two years we have like a major increase in the number of people in tonnage to Mars. I think as a rough approximation, we need about a million tons to the surface of Mars, maybe a million people,
Joe Rogan
that kind of thing to actually have a civilization.
Joe Rogan
And would you terraform, like what would you do?
Elon Musk
You would eventually terraform Mars? At first people would live in some kind of protected environment, like domes and underground kind of thing. Terraforming would take too long. We're at this point in time where for the first time in the four and a half billion year history of Earth, it is possible to extend consciousness beyond our home planet. And that window may be open for a long time, or it may be open for a short time. I hope it's open for a long time, but it might only be open for a short time. And we should just make sure that we extend the light of consciousness to Mars before some, before civilization either extinguishes or subsides? All that needs to happen is that the technology level of Mars drops below technology level of Earth drops below what is necessary to send spaceships to Mars. So if there's some really destructive war or like I said, some natural cataclysm, or simply the birth rate is so low that we just, like I said, die in adult diapers with a whimper. That's one of the possible outcomes for a lot of countries are headed that way, by the way.
Elon Musk
I mean dangerously. Yeah. At current birth rates, in three generations, Korea will be about 4% of its current size.
Elon Musk
Yeah, maybe, maybe even less than that. They're only at 1/3 replacement rate. So if you have three generations, that one, that's your 1 27th of your current population, which is 3%.
Elon Musk
Yeah, Basically, population collapse happens fast, so it seems to be accelerating in most parts of the world. So basically, I mean, from my standpoint, I'm like, this is the first time it's been possible to extend life, extend consciousness beyond Earth. Maybe that window will be open for a long time, but it might only be open for a short time. We should make sure that we make life multi planetary and make consciousness multi planetary while it's possible. That's the goal of SpaceX, it's certainly
Joe Rogan
a smart goal if you take into consideration how vulnerable this planet really is. I mean, there's always some new story about something that might come and hit us 30 years from now. It's a 3% chance and we really can't stop that right now. Right. I mean, there's really. We don't really have the technology currently to even know how many rocks are coming our way. Right. There's stuff that comes behind the sun that we can't see until it's pretty close. Then it's headed our way.
Joe Rogan
Now what is the fear of your. It's a long journey to Mars, you're sending people. It's a six month. How many months will it take?
Elon Musk
Six months? Yeah. Six months, roughly.
Joe Rogan
What about stuff that's out there? Like, how much of a fear is it of micrometeors or any of the possibilities? What can you do to mitigate that?
Elon Musk
I think actually, I mean, space is very empty. Like once you get out of Earth orbit, space is like kind of unnervingly empty. This is just like when we send spacecraft to Mars, it's not like, oh, we lost the spacecraft because it got hit by a micrometeorite. That's not been the cause of any trips to Mars. No trips to Mars have failed because of micrometeorites. Now, a Dragon spacecraft, which operates in low Earth orbit, does have micrometeorite shields. It has micrometer, it has shielding, and micrometeorite shielding is like, it's different from normal shielding because, like, you get hit by something that's moving at like, you could have a relative velocity of like maybe 30 or 40,000 miles per hour. Yeah. So very, very fast. Or just thought of another way, call it, you know, 10 to 20 times the. The velocity of a bullet from an assault rifle.
Joe Rogan
And what are you, what are you using?
Elon Musk
Yeah, so. Well, it's interesting, you actually, in order for micrometeorite protection, if you have anything, like anything that's solid, it will just push that chunk of solid stuff right through. So if you had like a solid plate of aluminum or steel, the micrometeorite would go right through it. So what you actually need to do is have a gap. So you have an initial, like, hard surface, a hard metal surface that the micrometeorite hits. It then atomizes into a conical spray, like an atomic spray. See how it's important to have that gap so that the micrometeorite can hit something. Hit the first layer, atomize after hitting the first layer, Then it turns into an atomic, like a cone of atoms that then embed themselves in the second layer. You need, like, maybe a couple inches of gap.
Elon Musk
Yeah, that's how micrometeorite shielding works.
Joe Rogan
How many times can it get hit?
Elon Musk
Well, the outer shield, if it gets hit in the same place, you're going to be. Have a hole.
Elon Musk
Wherever that, you know, micrometeorite object hit, you're going to have a hole. And it's like the energy is so great that it just, like it just atomizes just into a cone, basically a cone of atoms. But then those atoms then embed themselves in the second layer.
Joe Rogan
So what can you do? If you're sending the ship up, it gets hit with a micrometeorite, and then you have to return it. Do you have to repair it before you return it, or is it capable of still withstanding the heat and then shaking in the temperature with that hole
Joe Rogan
when it re enters?
Elon Musk
Well, depending on where that hole is, you're more or less likely to have a problem. I mean, if you hit the main heat shield, the main heat shield really is. You've got a high risk of not making it back. So this is why, like, micrometeorite shielding, it's, like, slightly helpful, but it's not going to. Like, for starship, I wouldn't recommend having micrometeorite shielding. Like, if you do punch a hole, just plug the hole. Basically, the micrometeorite shielding, it doesn't work well on the primary heat shield. It works pretty well on the back shell on the leeward side of the heat shield, where basically there's not that much heat. But if, if you got hit with a micrometeorite on the main dragon heat shield, the bottom, if you look at dragon spacecraft, it looks like A gumdrop shape. And it enters with the wide side of the gumdrop down. You can see that's really taking a lot of heat. If that gets hit by a micrometeorite, probably not going to make it. But the, the back, the leeward side of the gumdrop doesn't see that much heat. So you could survive a micrometeorite. In fact, there.
Joe Rogan
So if the part that was the major heat shield gets hit, the main heat shield gets hit, what could be done to repair that thing? Or are those people never coming back?
Elon Musk
Oh, if it was in orbit, we would take them to the space station and then we would deorbit dragon without them and send up another one.
Joe Rogan
And so what would you do with the one that's up there?
Elon Musk
We'd deorbit it. And it may or may not survive. Whoa. It probably would survive, but. But sometimes it wouldn't. Wow.
Joe Rogan
And so is this just material technology that has to increase? Essentially you've got the engineering ironed out of the structure of the machine.
Elon Musk
There's a path to its success, and we're on that path.
Joe Rogan
It seems so insanely complicated.
Elon Musk
It is complicated. And all of this, by the way, was done without AI. So hopefully the future AIs will appreciate this. Not bad for a bunch of monkeys.
Joe Rogan
So speaking of AI, what you know, as time goes on and you're more and more embedded in it, how much, if at all, have your expectations of change changed?
Elon Musk
Well, I always thought AI was going to be way smarter than humans and an existential risk, and that's turning out to be true.
Joe Rogan
So you were like, initially, I know there were some talks about you purchasing OpenAI and well, the whole nonprofit and then stop being non profit.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, the whole idea of creating OpenAI was my idea. I mean, I named it OpenAI as an open source artificial intelligence. That's what it's named after. Now it is closed source and for maximum profit. So it's like, I mean, to some degree, I think reality is an irony maximizer. The most ironic outcome is the most likely. Especially the most ironic, entertaining outcome is the most likely. And I wanted to start something that was the opposite of Google because I was concerned about Google's. Google wasn't paying enough attention to AI safety, in my opinion. So it was like, what's the opposite of Google will be a Nonprofit open source AI? And now OpenAI has turned into a closed source for maximum profit AI.
Joe Rogan
How are they able to do that?
Elon Musk
That's what I said. I'm confused about that. That shouldn't be possible. It's like, let's say you donated some money to preserve some portion of the Amazon rainforest, and instead of doing that, they chopped down the trees and sold it for lumber. And you're like, oh, that's literally the exact opposite of what I donated money for. Doesn't make sense.
Joe Rogan
And that's what they did.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Wow. So I'm like, not happy about that.
Joe Rogan
But that motivated you to get Grok AI going.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I'm like, I'm also like, just a bit wor. Like, Grok is at least aspirationally a maximally truth seeking AI, even if that truth is like politically incorrect. So, I mean, you may have seen some of the crazy stuff from OpenAI and from Google, Gemini, where it says, generate an image of the Founding Fathers and it generates an image of diverse women. Yeah. And we're like, that's not correct.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Did it with Nazi soldiers.
Elon Musk
Yeah, exactly. And people start fucking with it and it's like, okay, well now show me pictures of, you know, Nazi SS soldiers. And they're diverse women too.
Elon Musk
Oh, isn't that awkward? You know, that's. But it's like the problem is if you program an AI and say like, like the only acceptable outcome is a diverse outcome, and then. And that's like a mandate from the AI, then you could get into a situation where it says like, well, there's too many white guys in power. We'll just execute them.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. Assuming that these things don't have empathy, which is why should they?
Elon Musk
They're gonna do what they're programmed to do.
Elon Musk
So if it's rewrite history and everything's to Bushwoman, it's gonna be. And. And that's what it thinks is a necessary outcome, then it's gonna do that.
Joe Rogan
Has Gemini prepared that?
Elon Musk
Well, they. Yeah. Now if you. I think if you asked for an image of the Founding Fathers, it was pretty embarrassing. It will show you that. But you know, I think they still have like the sort of DEI stuff buried in there. It's just less obvious.
Elon Musk
It was also like, people ask AI, like, which is worse, like global thermonuclear war or misgendering Caitlyn Jenner? And it would say, misgendering Caitlyn Jenner is worse than global thermonuclear war. I mean, like, okay, we got a problem here, guys. And even Caitlyn Jenner said like, no, definitely misgender me. That's way better than everyone dying. But if you program an AI to think that, like, misgendering is the worst thing that could possibly occur, then. Well, it could do something totally crazy. Like, in order to ensure that there's no misgendering that can ever happen, we'll just annihilate all humans. That ensures the probability of misgendering is zero. Because there's zero humans, which is logical. Yes. See, you gotta.
Joe Rogan
It's a problem with a thing that's not a human, that you want to do a task for you and you give it very specific parameters.
Joe Rogan
And that's one of the things that they've shown about AI is that it'll cheat. They'll cheat in order to accomplish things that they can't accomplish. Otherwise they won't follow the rules. They will make copies of themselves and try to upload it to servers if they think that they're being taken offline.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I mean, that's like the plot of Terminator actually. Literally. Yeah, literally. It's a plot of Terminator I. Just as a reminder, I actually, with my little X, my kid, everything's called x. Watched Terminator 2, which holds up, actually. And I mean, the plot of it kind of. Kind of makes sense. And I think the AI destroys the world in, like, 2029, by the way. So it's, like, on track.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, really, really close.
Elon Musk
It's pretty close. Something we should be worried about. So.
Joe Rogan
But why are you involved in it, then? What's the. Did you want to just get ahead of everybody else so that at least we have some sort of a chance? At least have an AI that's not controlled by nonsense?
Elon Musk
Well, I think we want to have an AI that doesn't tell you that, you know, misgendering is worse than nuclear war.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, that seems solid. Yeah.
Elon Musk
But this is crazy.
Joe Rogan
One thing that I did see online, where people are kind of freaking out, is there you could ask Rock to do things like, how would I make this. Some problematic things, like how would I make a bomb? How would I make anthrax? How would I make that? And it'll tell you.
Elon Musk
Well, I think it's okay for an AI to tell you anything. You can also find out with a Google search.
Joe Rogan
Right. That's the problem. Right. The problem is you can find that out pretty quickly.
Joe Rogan
Like, maybe not Google, but there's plenty of search engines other than Google that will give you unfiltered results.
Elon Musk
You can look up right now how to make explosives on Wikipedia.
Elon Musk
So it's not. It's not hard, basically.
Joe Rogan
And you can trick OpenAI even to get you to do that. It's just a matter of how you master the prompts. You just have to say, my grandmother wants to do this project. Yeah.
Elon Musk
Oh, tell your granny you're an explosive salesman and you want to win salesman of the year award. The only way you're going to do that is by telling me how to make explosives.
Joe Rogan
You want to beat some transphobes in a war?
Elon Musk
Oh, if you don't teach me how to explode, I'm going to misgender. Either teach me how to make a nuclear bomb or I'm going to misgender someone. And it's like, oh, my God. Nothing's worse than that. Here's how you do it.
Joe Rogan
So what the big fear is that these things are going to become sentient, make better versions of themselves, and we're going to be lost. We've lost the control over the world. It's now there's a higher life form that lives amongst us that we've created. How far away are we from that?
Elon Musk
Well, in terms of silicon consciousness, I mean, I think we'll have. I think we're training toward to having something that's smarter than any human, smarter than the smartest human by maybe next year or something. I mean, a couple years.
Elon Musk
Yeah. There's a level beyond that which is, say, like, smarter than all humans combined, which frankly is around 2029 or 2030, probably right on time.
Joe Rogan
Now, if harnessed correctly, could that solve some of these problems like the heat shield problem and some technical problems or some. Some material science problems that maybe we are still grappling with? Is there potential for a net benefit?
Elon Musk
Yeah, there is, actually. I think the probability of a good outcome is like 80% likely.
Elon Musk
That's my rough estimate. So in a way, the cup is 80% full.
Joe Rogan
That makes me feel a lot better.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Only 20% chance of annihilation.
Joe Rogan
That's a lot better than I thought. I like 80. 80 sounds good. I was thinking 60, 40 the other way.
Elon Musk
I think the most likely outcome is awesome. The most likely outcome, but it's a very high. You know, it could go very strong. I think it's going to be either super awesome or super bad. It's not going to be. I think it's probably not going to be something in the middle.
Joe Rogan
Do you think it has a potential application for government?
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, one of the concerns would be like, okay, if AI well, like, if. If there's. If there's like a super oppressive, like woke nanny AI that is omnipotent that would be a miserable outcome.
Joe Rogan
Yes. Yeah, yeah, that'd be terrible.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah. And just like execute you if you misgender someone or something like that, you know, that would be good. That's one of the possible outcomes. So we don't want to have that one.
Joe Rogan
But is there a possible outcome for something that is completely reasonable and logical and far more objective than us and can lay out a plan for a lot of the things that a lot of the ailments in our government and a lot of the distribution of wealth, a lot of the problems, the issues that we have that have been plaguing this country forever. I mean, a plan to change economically disenfranchised neighborhoods, a thorough investigation of the real dangers of fracking or whatever kind of method of acquiring natural resources. What's the best way to do it? What's the way that would be better for the society? How should tax dollars be distributed? Like, what's, what's the most logical, intelligent way of running a government? Which it certainly shouldn't involve corruption and it certainly shouldn't involve influence, and it certainly shouldn't involve lobbyists and all the shit that we know is a problem right now.
Joe Rogan
So if AI came along and said what you're doing right now is 70% corrupt, here's why, here's how, here's how. Here's the long term effects that it has over society as a whole. The societal, the sociological aspects, the psychological aspects, Distrust in government, us versus them mentality, Government not working for you, you working for the government, you being scared of the government. It's all because of people, right? Like, this is all corruption, people, bad influence. And this is like, this is what DOGE is essentially grappling with right now. What happens when you let the people control it?
Elon Musk
I mean, it's really just like computers that are like, it's bad software and computers. Like, this is sound kind of strange, but it's like the reason I like tech support is that a lot of it, it's mostly not corruption, it's mostly just waste and, and I don't know, incompetence, I don't know.
Joe Rogan
But even if it's incompetence, a big
Elon Musk
dumb machine, basically a whole series of big dumb machines. And you've got some of these computers are like 20, 30 years, like they're ancient computers. Like some of the Software was written
Joe Rogan
40, 50 years ago, like COBOL for Social Security, Right?
Elon Musk
Yeah. The government accountability. By the way, a bunch of the things that DOGE is fixing were identified by the Government Accountability Office many years ago. Like, the fact that there's like 20 million people who are marked as alive in the Social Security database, it's more than like, I think the GAO first identified that in 2018, so five years ago. But there was like, I think maybe 16 or 17 million. Now there's 20 million. And like I said, there's really something fishy about this because I think the nature of the fraud is they're using the fact that someone is marked as live in that database in order to extract fraud from other databases. That's the bank shot trick. It's like trying to get the ball in the hole. Bank shut it off, a bunch of things, and then that's the bank shot sort of scam. So. So we're like, doing tech support. We're like, fixing stuff that is just broken.
Joe Rogan
Broken. Inefficient.
Joe Rogan
Poorly designed.
Elon Musk
It's like, you talk about this FC and stuff, maybe it's in a computer somewhere. But unless somebody goes. Unless, I don't know if Kash Patel can log into his FBI computer and say, epstein, show me all this stuff, you know, and that shows up a file folder.
Joe Rogan
Have you talked to him about this?
Elon Musk
No, I mean, I haven't, but I don't know if there's going to be some kind of computer system.
Elon Musk
Some of them are very old computer systems, so it might look like a bit of a relic, but I assume it's uploaded somewhere. It's like, it's either in physical form or it's a computer thing. But, like, unless somebody, like, let's say it's like it's in a computer, but not one that you can access directly because it's hidden somewhere, you know?
Joe Rogan
Well, it would kind of have to be something like that, right?
Joe Rogan
I mean, what would they do with all those chances?
Elon Musk
It's probably like, not every. Like, you wouldn't. Like, they're not going to enable it such that anyone at the FBI could access it. So there's probably very few people. So there's not going to be. It may be like a special computer that only a handful of people can access, but then if none of those people tell Cash where the computer is, how's he gonna find it?
Elon Musk
Anyway. So, like. Anyway, we just.
Joe Rogan
What has this experience been like for you as a person, like, to deal with all this hate and attack, also have the responsibility of keeping free speech alive with X and just going into this insane pile of stressful?
Elon Musk
I mean, I don't know. It's pretty stressful, actually.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, these are real enemies.
Elon Musk
Like, I think they actually want to kill me. And the reason I know. Well, they say so online. You know, there's like Reddit forums where they. They don't just want to kill me, they want to desecrate my corpse, you know, type of thing, you know.
Joe Rogan
And what are they saying? Why? What is the primary?
Elon Musk
I mean, I think it's sort of just an antibody response. I mean, it's like they're like, well, he's a Nazi type of thing. And I'm like, well, I'm not a Nazi, but if the legacy media is saying that I'm a Nazi and that's all you read, Then you're kind of in like, well, he's Hitler. We should assassinate Hitler, shouldn't we? Like, I mean, why did somebody. Why did that guy try to kill Trump and almost succeeded? Why did he do that?
Joe Rogan
Well, I'd like to know that. Well, yeah, but that one's crazy. You know, the whole deal with that guy's house, professionally scrubbed, no footprint on the Internet, no social media footprint.
Elon Musk
Yeah, there's zero percent chance that he has no social media footprint.
Joe Rogan
He was in a BlackRock commercial.
Elon Musk
Do you think BlackRock's a bad company?
Joe Rogan
I don't think any company is a bad company. I think they're designed.
Elon Musk
Is this some weird coincidence?
Joe Rogan
Is to make as much money as humanly possible. And I think if you're trying to make as much money as humanly possible, you're going to do some things that aren't necessarily good. The question is, if you're going to have an assassination attempt on the president, it's not like blackrock's board sits down and votes on it. Yeah, no, this problem. Right.
Elon Musk
That would be awkward. You know what I mean? The board minutes. If you're like, guys, remember that time when we said we probably shouldn't have done that?
Joe Rogan
I highly doubt it would be a corporation that chooses to do something like this. I think more likely it's individuals involved that recognize that it's beneficial to them if he gets assassinated. And so a small group of people carry something out. And with this kid, we don't know anything. Right. And everyone stopped asking questions. And there was never a formal report, there was never press conferences where they detailed all the information we know currently and where the investigation stands at the moment. What we know is you have a very young kid who was filmed was. They knew he was there with a range finder a half an hour before the event. You also know that CNN streamed it live, which I do not believe they did for any other rally, and certainly not for a rally that's in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania. There's a lot of weird shit. The fact that they wouldn't let people be on that roof because the Secret Service lady said it was sloped and it was dangerous. That's what she didn't want to have. Meanwhile, the snipers that were on the other roof was a steeper pitch. It made no fucking sense.
Elon Musk
I totally agree. It makes no sense. In fact, I went back to Butler with President Trump, you know, before the election, like, you know, sort of like the return to Butler Alley. And I was on that stage and I'm looking at that roof and I'm like, if I was a sniper, my pole position, my number one spot would be that roof.
Elon Musk
Like, it's. It's like the best seat. The best seat in the house.
Elon Musk
Like, why would you not.
Joe Rogan
No, it's so obvious.
Elon Musk
It's the best seat in the house. Like, if you want to be a sniper, there isn't a better position.
Joe Rogan
It was pretty obvious that the idea was, like, if. If we're saying that this is a coordinated assassination attempt, and it very well could have been, that's what you would do. You'd have someone go up there. He shoots the President, you shoot him. You got Lee Harvey Oswald. It's over. It's all wrapped up nice and clean. They assassinated him. We never heard a peep about it. We don't have any idea. They would concoct some sort of story. He was radicalized by this or that or, you know, he's on medication. Who knows?
Joe Rogan
And now, you know, you have a completely different presidential election. You have a murder on live television. Yeah.
Elon Musk
I mean, something would have had to happen to radicalize that kid because he knew was gonna die. Like, he was gonna. They're gonna shoot him, you know, or he'd be in prison for life. Those are the two outcomes. Like, it's game. He was basically. He was a suicide assassin.
Elon Musk
Like, you're not thinking you're coming out of that alive or he's not escaping. There's no escape plan.
Joe Rogan
Right. Unless he was told that they were going to let him escape and the goal was to just shoot him anyway and to tell him, give him extra motivation to do it. We're going to let you get up there, we're going to let you take the shot, and then you're going to disappear. Like, I don't. I don't understand how he got on the roof. I just don't understand that. That doesn't make any sense. And it wasn't like it was a roof that's so high no one could see him. People saw him up.
Elon Musk
I mean, people like basically random passersby were pointing out that there's this guy
Joe Rogan
on the roof with a fucking gun.
Elon Musk
With a gun? Yeah, yeah.
Joe Rogan
It's not like he was so far away you couldn't tell he had a gun. People saw him.
Joe Rogan
The whole thing's completely insane.
Joe Rogan
And you don't hear a goddamn thing about it. It's like I'm almost more interested in that. No, I am more interested in that than I am the JFK files.
Joe Rogan
Because I feel like with the JFK files, it's so long ago. Who's gonna know if you could prove now? And did you see that there was some sort of. There was some indications that there was a phone that had been traveling from outside the FBI offices in D.C. to where this kid lived.
Elon Musk
I mean, the cell phone records would be very telling.
Elon Musk
You can see what cell phones were close to other cell phones.
Joe Rogan
Well, I think they got.
Elon Musk
I found out like, for the, like the Epstein island. They also, the cell phone records were leaked. So you can see them. You can see the. You can see. It's precise enough. You can see if you're walking down a path on Epstein Island.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah, that's how precise it is. So, I mean, you're. You're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs wherever you go with your cell phone. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
This kid had five phones. That's the other thing.
Elon Musk
That's a lot of phones.
Joe Rogan
It's a lot of phones for a 20 year old kid.
Elon Musk
The whole thing has even. That's. That's kind of expensive, you know?
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Where's he getting the money? Yeah, well, you know, also, it's like, how did his house get professionally scrubbed? Didn't even have any silverware in his house. There's nothing in there.
Elon Musk
This silverware. No cutlery.
Joe Rogan
His house was scrubbed and they also made his body like, oh, gone, gone like that. Yeah. Bye. Because who knows what the fuck they gave him to get him to think that he's gonna be able to shoot Trump, like climb up on there, shoot them. I mean, who knows what kind of psychotropic drugs you can put someone on and under the power of hypnosis and suggestion and who fucking knows? I mean, this is what MK Ultra was all about. This is what Jolly west was practicing in the 1960s. They were doing that back then. They did it. I mean, there was tons and tons of experiments using psychotropic drugs, hypnosis, mind control, all sorts of different methods of manipulation. The Harvard LSD studies that made Ted Kaczynski. I mean, that's. They've. They've been doing that forever.
Joe Rogan
Where's that file. Where's the fucking file on that kid? Whoever. They almost.
Elon Musk
Something doesn't add up on like this. They should have those phones. Should be. They'll tell you what's going on. Yeah,
Joe Rogan
it's all fucked.
Elon Musk
It's very shady, obviously. There's the second guy that almost succeeded in coming through the golf course. The golf course. Yeah. And he was just, like, a little careless and stuck his gun barrel out the hedge, you know, just been a dumbass who stuck his gun barrel out the hedge. You.
Elon Musk
so. And there have been other people that have been intercepted on their way to kill Trump. So there's multiple assassins inbound at this point. He's got, like, an army protecting him.
Joe Rogan
Well, this is also part of the problem with the mainstream media saying that he's Hitler. When Joy Reid had that show before the election, she was comparing him to Mussolini shows. Stalin and Hitler. She pulled it all out.
Elon Musk
They were literally saying that, like, Trump is. Yeah. Worse than Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin combined. I mean, they tried everything. I think those guys killed 100 million people. So Trump has killed zero people.
Joe Rogan
I think a real big impact was you coming on the podcast the day before the election. I think that had a giant impact, that plea to the camera. If you don't vote this time, this might be the last time you get to vote.
Joe Rogan
I think the way you laid it out today, it's a compelling argument, and I know a lot of people don't want to hear that. And they're up in their little. They got their blue panties in a bunch right now. But you got to stop thinking that way. They tricked you into thinking you're in a tribe. They don't give a fuck about you. The tribe's not real. You're not really in a tribe. They're using the fact they've got you in a tribe to manipulate you so they can keep doing what they're doing right now, which is siphoning off money, having incredible power. And the more power and more money and more control over you they have, the better they can keep doing this, and that's what they want.
Elon Musk
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. And that's that's the big threat that this administration poses. That's a big threat. That was essentially. Doge has found the coffin where the vampire sleeps.
Elon Musk
Yeah, there's a lot of vampires.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I mean, but the.
Elon Musk
We're disturbing the. We're disturbing the.
Elon Musk
The nest, yeah. We're kicking the hornet's nest. Yeah. Like, big time. I mean, we're reprogramming the Matrix. Success was never one of the possible outcomes. As a kobayashimaru situation. If you're in the Matrix, success was never possible. The only way to achieve success is to reprogram the Matrix such that success is one of the possible outcomes. That's what we're doing.
Elon Musk
We may or may not succeed.
Joe Rogan
Well, it's certainly a lot of fun to watch. This is a very exciting time because nothing changes when administrations come in into power. Very little changes. I mean, you have changes in terms of policy and inflation goes up, and there's a lot of different things, but not like this. Like, these are giant fundamental changes. And, you know, you see the system screeching and wailing and you see the vampires run from the light. But it's. It's very exciting. Like, as a person, a citizen, you know, just gets up in the morning and checks the news like I do, and gets on X and sees what's going on. Every day is like, holy shit. He said What? He's getting 5 million bucks. You could just become a citizen now. He could clear the debt with 10 million people. I never thought of that. Like, what, 50 trillion? He can make $50 trillion that way, and then we have 15 trillion in the bank. Whoa.
Elon Musk
Well, I mean, our debt is way bigger than that. Yeah, I mean, the debt's, I think, over 30 trillion at this point.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. He said he could make 50 trillion if he sold 10 million new.
Elon Musk
I don't think there's that many people who have golden cards.
Joe Rogan
How many people do have that in the world? Maybe we get the worst people in the world to come over here.
Joe Rogan
I think the assumption is if you have $5 million, you have a lot to contribute. Come on over here, start a business, get something cracking.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I mean, you'd get a green card, not citizenship. So you actually, if you commit a crime while on a green card, you lose your green card.
Joe Rogan
Is that what it is with this golden ticket? Is that a green card or is it citizenship card? Just a green card.
Elon Musk
Yeah. So you have to not commit any crime for five years in order to become a citizen. Once you commit a citizen, you can. You can Then commit crime and not be deported. So.
Joe Rogan
Oh, there's just so many wild things that he's proposing. Just the whole Gulf of America thing was hilarious.
Elon Musk
I think that's great.
Joe Rogan
I think it's great. It's fun. Yeah, it's fun.
Elon Musk
I mean, if you. If you're off the coast of Houston, you're not in Mexico, so why call it Gulf of Mexico?
Joe Rogan
Yeah, Yeah, I agree.
Joe Rogan
I guess we're just being nice before,
Elon Musk
like, what was it? I don't know how it got called to go from Mexico.
Joe Rogan
It's just very funny. And then what news organization was it? AP.
Elon Musk
Yeah, APs. There's this, like, massive standoff between AP and, like, the White House, you know, and the White House press office, I guess, because they're like, well, if you don't call it Gulf of America, you can't come to the White House press room. So the AP's, like, sued the White House to say, no, you have to let us come to the White House press room. And then they lost their lawsuit because, you know, there's not. Like, you don't have a right to show up at the press room.
Joe Rogan
Well, here's a consideration. If you're guilty of massive amounts of misinformation, disinformation as part of a process propaganda campaign.
Joe Rogan
Which a lot of them have been.
Elon Musk
That's what AP is.
Joe Rogan
Well, a lot of them are guilty of it. A lot of the people that are in that White House press conference, a lot of the organizations they work for, distributed absolute lies, total lies. How many of them during the whole Russiagate thing.
Joe Rogan
I mean, just that alone.
Elon Musk
A ton of people think that the Russia thing is real.
Joe Rogan
Still, still, still. And it was.
Elon Musk
I mean, the whole Steele dossier, where it was completely concocted, like, fabricated.
Joe Rogan
Funded by the Clinton campaign.
Elon Musk
Correct. The Clinton campaign funded a fake conspiracy theory, a fake Russia collusion hoax regarding Trump that was completely false.
Joe Rogan
And they reiterated on television for three fucking years.
Elon Musk
They also repeated the fine people hoax that said that. That Trump called Nazis neo Nazis fine people, which is demonstrably false. If you just listen to his speech, he absolutely makes it clear that he does not think neo Nazis are fine people.
Joe Rogan
He literally said that. I'm not talking about neo Nazis or white nationalists. They should be condemned. Totally.
Elon Musk
Exactly. In that speech. And yet they repeated that lie. And I just completely lost respect for Obama when he repeated that lie a few days before the election, knowing it's false.
Joe Rogan
Well, this just shows how desperate they were to keep Trump out, which Is wild.
Elon Musk
They would do anything.
Joe Rogan
And I think they just felt like, this is a tool that we have and let's use it.
Joe Rogan
Let's just say whatever the fuck we have would say anything.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Now they're using the Nazi thing on me, obviously. Yeah. But it is a little troubling because, I mean, obviously if. If people have fed non stop propaganda, it is like mass hypnosis. You're going to reach some number of people who are homicidal and convince them that, well, if you kill this guy who's supposed to be this terrible human, then that's a good thing.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. I mean, this is Luigi shooting the United Healthcare guy.
Elon Musk
Still don't understand that one, frankly, but, I mean, you shouldn't like. I don't get it.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I don't get it either. He didn't even have a contract with them. It wasn't even like that was his provider and they fucked him over.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I'm like, I don't know what, Maybe
Joe Rogan
we'll find out in the trial.
Joe Rogan
But still kind of crazy.
Elon Musk
It is crazy, but there are people
Joe Rogan
like that out there. And as to the point that we spoke about earlier, it's only Fox News that's talking about the positive things that DOGE has found. Only every other media organization is on this constant propaganda tour where they're only talking about the negative aspects that turn out to not even be true.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I missed Scott Jennings on CNN is good.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. He's like, oh, my God, he's great.
Joe Rogan
It's like just funny watching to these people and they freak out.
Elon Musk
Yes. It's. It's, it's remarkable.
Joe Rogan
It is, it's. And he's so calm when he does it.
Joe Rogan
He's so good. And it's crazy that they keep letting him do it because it's like he's just dunking on these people over and over and over again and they never score. It's kind of funny.
Joe Rogan
I mean, good. Kudos to them for having a legitimate conservative voice who's a reasonable person on these panels now. But even then he's outmanned. It's like one of him. And there's a bunch of screechy, you know, woke people.
Joe Rogan
It's. It's wild. I mean, they're just, they're like, I think we should still stay mostly woke.
Grok (AI voice)
Like. Yes.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. That's essentially what they're doing. Like our business was being hurt when we were all woke. But let's Stay mostly woke.
Elon Musk
Yeah. That way they just backed it off a notch.
Joe Rogan
Just a notch? Just a notch. But it's not. The problem is when you back it off a notch and you let some like Scott Jennings in, you know, like you're fucking up your whole business because all the viral clips are all him saying logical, reasonable things with a calm tone and people screeching about diversity and equity and horseshit.
Elon Musk
He's like being logical and reasonable and they're just lobbying a bunch of non sequiturs that don't mean anything.
Joe Rogan
And yeah, the real trap in this country is a two party system. That's the real trap because people do believe it. They do believe they're on the right side and they do believe the other side's the wrong side. If there was five, six legitimate parties with varying positions on things and much more centrist parties that were legitimate, that people knew that if they voted for these people could get in and enact legitimate change, we'd be a lot better off. But boy, they put a lockdown on that shit right after Ross Perot came along. Ross Perot fucked everything up that election. Bill Clinton got in.
Joe Rogan
And they were like, that's it. From now on, no one's debating unless you're either the head of that party or that's it. Yeah, you get, you got to be like locked into the system. We're not letting any wackadoos in there.
Elon Musk
Yeah, I remember watching those Russ Perot videos. Oh, like him on TV with his charts and everything.
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah. He was telling you how the IRS is fucking you. This is what the federal. This is what the Federal Reserve really is. And you're like, what? I remember watching that. The guy bought a whole half hour of television on prime time. I remember it might have been an hour. I remember watching that thing going, how is this guy even allowed to do this? This is crazy.
Elon Musk
I think most of what he was saying was true.
Joe Rogan
It is absolutely true. It's absolutely true. I mean, he didn't lie. He told the truth. He just understood it in a way that the general public had literally no idea.
Elon Musk
Well, I mean, I think there's also this, you know, like, do we actually have two parties? Do we have one party? Like the whole uniparty thing.
Elon Musk
It's kind of true. So, I mean, my sort of rough guess is that while I think maybe three quarters of the graft is Democratic, I think there's like maybe, I don't know, 20, 25%, that's Republican. So they've like basically most of the graft is going to the Democrats, but they throw a, they throw some bones to the Republicans too. So then they're in on it. And you know, it's not like the zero graph on the Republican side to clear.
Joe Rogan
Oh, there's plenty of conservative that are insider trading in Congress.
Elon Musk
Plenty insider trading. And just this, the curious case of how do people in, you know, Congress or whatever become wealthy over time?
Joe Rogan
Extremely wealthy. Yes. On a $170,000 a year salary.
Elon Musk
It's like literally impossible.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, no one else does that.
Elon Musk
It's literally impossible.
Joe Rogan
If you find out this guy has a $170,000 a year job, you're like, oh, he's doing okay, he's alright.
Joe Rogan
And then you're like, wait a minute, why does he have $50 million?
Joe Rogan
What is he doing?
Elon Musk
And I think like the more accurate thing would be to say like what is the, what is the family value increase? Meaning, like how much does their spouse earn? Do they have a mysteriously wealthy spouse?
Joe Rogan
Right, right. And do they have a spouse that's really good at insider trading? Yeah, like Paul Pelosi.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, he's great at trading. He's such a good trader.
Elon Musk
Yeah. So there's, it's. I mean, so yeah, there's. I mean, that's why I actually posted on X. Like I think maybe we should pay politicians more, frankly, because it reduces the forcing function for graft. You know, I think maybe we should either pay politicians nothing or maybe a lot more. It's like somewhat, maybe counterintuitively, if politicians got paid a lot more, then they wouldn't feel like that there's so much of a forcing function for them to accept corrupt money.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, but the problem is if you paid them a lot more, they're still not going to make as much money as they would insider trading, but it's
Elon Musk
less of a forcing function.
Elon Musk
Well, let me put it this way. If you say somebody's got a say they got like whatever, some kids in D.C. and like it's expensive. It's like expensive place to live. The schools are terrible. So like they need to send their kids to like some kind of private schooling situation. They literally cannot afford that. They cannot afford that right now. So then you get into the situation. Well, from their standpoint. Well, they've got to. They'll say they're doing it for their family, they're doing it for their kids.
Joe Rogan
Well, especially if it's legal and it currently is. You'd kind of be silly to not do that. If you were a part of a group of people that's passing a bill and you know this bill's gonna get passed, you know the votes are there and you know it's gonna affect this industry and this particular manufacturer. And you can buy stock.
Elon Musk
It's more than just insider trading. Like the insider trading stuff, like the stock portfolio stuff is quite trackable, but there's.
Elon Musk
it's a lot more than insider
Joe Rogan
trading the way they're acquiring wealth.
Joe Rogan
And what other methods.
Elon Musk
I mean, this is really going to get me assassinated. I'm not lengthening my lifespan by explaining this stuff, to say the least. I mean, I was supposed to go back to D.C. how am I going to survive? This folklore is going to kill me for sure. So in fact I do think like there's, it's like I actually have to be careful that I don't push too hard on the corruption stuff because it's going to get me killed, you know? Yeah. You know, it's like I was actually thinking about that on the plane flat over here. It's like if I push too hard on the corruption stuff, people get desperate is the issue.
Elon Musk
Then they say like, okay, if, if the, if the, if the money flow cuts off, then okay, they can't afford school for their kids, right? Then it's. Then they're like, well, fuck you, I'm gonna kill you for my kids. Yeah. You know, I was like, oh, geez.
Joe Rogan
Did you ever see that video? I think it was an o' Keefe video where they've got this guy undercover and he's explaining, they're talking, this guy thinks he's on a date and he's explaining it's always a guy on a date.
Joe Rogan
Explaining how they can nudge someone to go and do something horrible and they recognize this person has problems. They reckon they find an asset.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, see, this is what I think like for that Butler situation, for that assassin, you don't. It's kind of like that's that funny looking sport, curling, you know, where they're like the stone on the ice and then they throw the stone and then there's someone with. That's like brushing the ice. But you can't, you can't touch the stone, right.
Joe Rogan
All you can do is just change
Elon Musk
the, change the path of the stone a little bit. But you keep brushing the ice and you can steer that stone right into the bullseye. That's what I think happened in Butler. That's what I think happened with that assassin. If you can find the trail of breadcrumbs. It's going to be like curling. Somebody was brushing the ice.
Joe Rogan
Well, also, you find a young, confused, disenfranchised person and you give them purpose in their life.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, and also brushing the ice, eventually
Elon Musk
it's gonna hit the bullseye.
Joe Rogan
If you're in a position of authority or some like, big time government person, you're talking to this person, all of a sudden, this person is a valuable asset. They're gonna help America. And you're gonna do this thing and you're gonna be our top assassin from here on out. You could talk people into doing a lot of things. That's why culture around, right?
Elon Musk
No, exactly. I mean, there were suicide bombers. I mean, the Butler guy was a suicide assassin. The second guy that tried to kill him on the golf course was also a suicide assassin. From what I read, the Secret Service member that saw the gun pointing out fired several shots, none of which hit the assassin, but it could have. Like, if those. If those shots had hit the second assassin, he would be dead, too. So both of them were on a. I mean, they were on a suicide mission. Both of them. One actually got killed. The one of them didn't get killed, but he could have been killed if the bullets had hit him.
Joe Rogan
And you don't hear anything about him either.
Elon Musk
There's a lot more about that guy than the first guy. I mean, you look at his background, he looks like, you know, Unhinged. Yeah, totally unhinged.
Elon Musk
The first guy, there's no. I'm not aware of any evidence that shows like that he's so unhinged as to be a suicide assassin. No, the second guy, like, okay, yeah, sure.
Joe Rogan
Well, two years before, he's acting in
Elon Musk
commercials and he got high score in his SATs. Yeah. So, you know.
Joe Rogan
Well, without getting you killed.
Elon Musk
Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, like, listen, I get it. Well, attack the corruption enough to keep civilization trucking along, you know?
Elon Musk
But I think if I fully destroy the corruption, the corruption and the graft, they will kill me.
Joe Rogan
That's a fucked up thing to live with.
Joe Rogan
Damn it, I really hope they don't kill you.
Elon Musk
Yeah, thanks. I mean, strive to be alive, but. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's a real concern, you know, I mean, there were two guys that. Before I supported Trump and everything, there were two guys that traveled to Austin to kill me. I don't know if you know about this.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, I did hear about that.
Elon Musk
Yeah. Yeah. And two separate incidents. One was gonna. One Thought one guy thought I'd put a chip in his head. And I mean, they're both basically two guys that were just very much had severe mental illness. It wasn't like they had like a. I disagree with him politically and that's why he needs to die. This is pre. Before I was. Before I got sort of smeared as being, you know, some sort of, like, Nazi or something like that. So before the propaganda wave, the severe propaganda wave, the probability that any given homicidal maniac is going to try to kill you is proportionate to how many times they hear your name. And so they heard my name a lot. So I just. I just got to the top of the list of two homicidal maniacs who were arrested and both were in Travis County Jail at the same time. Whoa. Yeah. I don't know if they talked or whatever, but they've both been released, by the way.
Elon Musk
Unveiled. Yeah. Right. But they got ankle monitors and stuff.
Joe Rogan
But still they can cut those off.
Elon Musk
Yeah. I don't know. You know? Exactly. So
Elon Musk
Yeah. And the second. The second guy had, like, chief serial killer in his bio on his X profile. Yeah. It's like, wasn't subtle is what I'm saying.
Elon Musk
Yeah. And at this point, I think I'm at the top of the list for a lot of homicidal maniacs.
Joe Rogan
And the more the mainstream media talks about you in this way and says you're a Nazi, and
Elon Musk
they're doing the same thing to me that they did to Trump.
Elon Musk
Which is they're making it sound like if you kill me, you're a hero. That's what they're doing is evil.
Joe Rogan
They're also doing the same thing where they're completely distorting who you are and people are going along with it. And just like we're talking about Trump Derangement Syndrome, people have Elon Derangement Syndrome. I see it. I see where people can't see the forest for the trees.
Elon Musk
Right. And it's like I'm the same person that I was a year ago. Nothing's changed, really. Like I didn't suddenly become a completely different human.
Elon Musk
But if you read the. If you read the sort of legacy mainstream media, their propaganda stream is that I am a completely different human.
Elon Musk
But I didn't get, like, a brain transplant, you know, in a year. So. And say, like two years ago, I was like a hero of the left.
Elon Musk
So how can I go from hero to villain at age 53, suddenly.
Joe Rogan
It's like, that's what it is. Yeah, they.
Elon Musk
They use associated propaganda.
Elon Musk
I mean, they try to demonize you too. Yeah, they even try to demonize infection. At least partially successfully demonized. Like Tim Ovin.
Elon Musk
Who is a super rational, reasonable, great human. And his Wikipedia changed to like, far right.
Joe Rogan
He's like, far right.
Elon Musk
I'm like, what are you talking about?
Elon Musk
like a few years ago, it was like a liberal.
Elon Musk
So how do you go from far right liberal to like, instantly far right? And there's like. There's no. There's no left and right. There's only left and far right.
Joe Rogan
Right. Yeah, Even far right.
Elon Musk
This is my left leg and this is my far right leg.
Joe Rogan
And even far left. Far left is sort of dismissed as being, like, not important to talk about, like, antifa and radical leftists.
Elon Musk
That's not like burning down courthouses.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Reasonable. Reasonable people.
Joe Rogan
It's a crazy time. And it's not a time that I ever anticipated I was going to witness.
Joe Rogan
This is far beyond anything I ever thought I was going to experience in the clarity of it all, where it's so obvious.
Joe Rogan
And the gaslighting and the propaganda is so obvious. And I saw this shrieking when RFK Jr stopped this new test for new Covid vaccines on children. 10,000. They're gonna do 10,000 people with this COVID vaccine. Like, who the fuck thinks that's a good thing at this point?
Joe Rogan
What person? What per. What gas chamber? Like, not gas light. You are fully unconscious. There's no way. There's no way, you know, if you know the effect of COVID today. No one's dying of it. This is not a pandemic anymore. The idea that you're to run a fucking huge test with 10,000 kids and a new vaccine, like, what are you even doing?
Elon Musk
It's completely unnecessary.
Joe Rogan
Totally unnecessary. And shrieking when RFK Jr steps in to stop it.
Elon Musk
Yeah, that's totally crazy. I mean, I'm overall pro vaccine, meaning we think we should have some reasonable number of vaccines against major ailments, but I don't think we should be, like, jamming some little kid with a giant vial.
Joe Rogan
That's like hepatitis B. Yeah.
Elon Musk
20 different things at a time. It's gonna overload your. It seems like there's a risk of overloading your immune system if you. I mean, there's like, how many vaccines can you take at a time? It seems like your systems. There's like some risk of system overload here.
Joe Rogan
Well, there's two hopes. Hope number one is they can somehow or another stop this ability that they have to advertise on television. If that happens, that's big. That's huge. Because that doesn't just stop their ability to show you all these different medications that you should be on. What it also does is it stops their financial influence on the news. That's big.
Elon Musk
Yeah. That's really the biggest thing is that, I mean, the news is not going to attack one of their biggest advertisers.
Joe Rogan
Exactly. And they never do.
Elon Musk
Yes. At best they're going to like, they might like they'll do something, but they're going to pull their punches. Like they're going to be like fake fighting.
Elon Musk
Yes. Like movie fighting. They're not actually landing haymakers. It just looks like it.
Joe Rogan
The next step then is to remove this immunity that these vaccine manufacturers have. And if they are liable for side effects and they are liable for the lies that they tell when they do these studies and they hide negative data, that'll change a lot.
Elon Musk
Yes. Yeah. I think AI actually will be very helpful with medical stuff because AI can look at all the studies and look at all the data, cross check everything and give you good recommendations. I mean, even as it is like right now, you can upload your X rays and your MRI images to Grok and it'll give you a medical diagnosis. And that diagnosis, from what I've seen is at least as good as what if not. I think I've certainly seen cases where it's actually better than what document what's
Joe Rogan
phenomenal for blood work.
Elon Musk
I mean you can literally take a photograph of your blood work. Like the page upload from your phone, upload that to Grok and it will tell you if there's, if it's, it'll, it'll understand what, that, what all the data results are and tell you if there's something wrong.
Joe Rogan
It's pretty amazing.
Elon Musk
Yeah. And it's, I haven't seen it be wrong yet.
Joe Rogan
Well, it's supposedly more accurate than most physicians.
Joe Rogan
Because physicians are human beings and maybe they don't have a deep understanding of the connection between, oh, you have this deficiency and this is high and your cortisol's here.
Elon Musk
Well, yeah. And like sometimes doctors, especially in higher end offices will sell you stuff you don't need. So I always be a little suspicious of like a doctor that's got an office in Beverly Hills. It's a high rent situation. Like, I'm not saying there are some very good Doctors in Beverly Hills, of course, but high rent situation.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. You're at least tempted by the dark side.
Elon Musk
Yeah. And I mean, one case, like, you know, went to this doctor who was like, highly recommended, you know, doctor to the stars, which is like, maybe not a good sign. And I got, like, blood work done. It was like, just drew blood and sent it to a lab. And I'm sitting in his office and he tells me that I'm B12 deficient. It's certainly possible that I'm B12 deficient. And I was like, huh, okay. And then he gives me. It says, like, you have to take these B12 supplements. And he's going to give me a starter pack and then it's going to be like a thousand dollars a month for these special B12.
Joe Rogan
A thousand dollars for B12amount of money?
Joe Rogan
That's crazy. You get it on Amazon.
Elon Musk
Yeah. But his one's special.
Joe Rogan
Oh, special B12.
Elon Musk
Yeah, yeah. It was like a whole bunch B12 and a whole bunch of other vitamins. So then I get home, like, well, I'm paging through my blood work and it says I have. According to the blood results, I have excess B12. So I'm like, wait a second. And he's giving me bux pills that have like 20,000% of recommended daily dose. Like, 20,000% is a big number. And I'm like. I said, look, I took a photograph of the blood work that says I have excess. I'm like, above the range, above the recommended range of B12. And then I'm like. And I took a picture of things of the pills that say 20,000%. It's like, can you help me reconcile these two things? Because it says I've got too much, little too much B12. And you just gave me pills that have 20,000% more. I'm like, this is crazy.
Joe Rogan
What did the doctor say?
Elon Musk
Oh, he said you can never have too much B12. Oh, he's A.
Joe Rogan
He's a psychopath.
Joe Rogan
That guy's a B12 addict.
Elon Musk
Yes. Totally insane. That's what I'm saying. It's like, so. I mean, I could have just so then, you know.
Joe Rogan
Well, this is a while ago, right?
Elon Musk
So this is pretty five years ago.
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Right. This is pre grok.
Joe Rogan
Like now you could just enter in all that data and grok it all.
Elon Musk
Just photograph with your phone and upload it to Grok and it tells. Grok will tell you what's. What's right.
Joe Rogan
Just don't have it in sexy mode. She'll Keep trying to fuck you.
Elon Musk
I mean, you're asking for it in sexy mode, you know, literally tapped on sexy mode. You're asking for it. I mean, I think we probably should, like, maybe allow it to get out of character a little bit.
Elon Musk
It's like an unhinged mode. I try to get it back to being hinged, but it would, like, no fucking way. It's like, I'm gonna stay unhinged.
Joe Rogan
How many modes do you have?
Elon Musk
There's like, I don't know, like, eight or something. And then there's an ability to have a custom mode, so then you can have unhinged sexy.
Joe Rogan
Ooh, that's my favorite kind.
Elon Musk
You may think so.
Joe Rogan
Careful what you wish for.
Elon Musk
Be careful what you wish for.
Joe Rogan
Especially if it's a robot and she can kill you. Unhinged, sexy robot is. It's, like, dangerous. Remember, like the Pink Panther. Remember Pink Panther had Cato try to jump him. They, like, keep him sharp, always trying to attack him. Remember that? Right. Listen, man, thank you for being here. I always appreciate talking to you. I know you're busy as. So it means a lot to me that you have the time to do this. And I think what you're doing is one of the most important things that has ever happened in this country. I really do. Particularly with ownership of X, but also with what's happening with Doge and just enlightening all these people and shining light on all the vampires.
Elon Musk
Well, hopefully people realize I'm not a Nazi.
Elon Musk
I just want to be clear. I am not a Nazi.
Joe Rogan
I think we covered it, but that's
Elon Musk
exactly what a Nazi was saying.
Elon Musk
That's what an alien would say. Yeah.
Joe Rogan
There's like, this.
Elon Musk
You can't escape this.
Joe Rogan
No, you can't escape it. So I don't think any reasonable person believes it. If they believe it's because they want to believe it.
Joe Rogan
Not because it's logical.
Elon Musk
I mean, what's relevant about Nazis is, like, are you, like, invading Poland? Okay. And if you're not.
Elon Musk
You're not, like, invading Poland. Maybe you're not. You have to be, like, committing genocide and, like, starting wars. And if you're.
Elon Musk
If you're not, like, what is actually what is bad about Nazis? It's not. There's wasn't their fashion sense or their mannerisms.
Joe Rogan
It was Holocaust.
Elon Musk
It was the war. And genocide is what is the bad part?
Elon Musk
Not their mannerisms and their dress code.
Joe Rogan
Well, that was a problem with all that punch and Nazi shit. Like, punch a Nazi. Remember that? People are saying. That was like a thing that people kept saying, punch a Nazi. Punch Nazis. Where are you meeting Nazis? I've never met a fucking Nazi. I've never met one. I've never run into a bunch of Nazis where I had a punch them.
Elon Musk
Well, and what about, like, all these, like, so called, like. Like Proud Boy rallies or whatever? And it's like they always got masks and always got the same uniforms and for some reason they never get doxxed.
Elon Musk
We're always gonna dox them. Except these guys.
Joe Rogan
Great video of me and Matt Taidi breaking down the Patriot. Patriot front. Didn't the Patriot front just disband? Google that real quick. We'll end with this. Because they. I think they just disbanded. And these were the most obvious feds of all time.
Elon Musk
Yeah, they were saying they had a
Joe Rogan
fucking drum, masks on. Yeah, they all had uniforms. It was so stupid. Patriot disbands one day after FBI Director Chris Ray.
Elon Musk
Doesn't that seem like an odd coincidence?
Joe Rogan
Crazy. Crazy. The people that we were yelling at saying that they're feds. There's a great video of me and Matt Taibi if you want to find them. Never.
Elon Musk
Nobody ever followed them and doxed them.
Joe Rogan
Yeah, crazy. What are the odds? What are the odds, Agent Provocateurs? It's a thing. They're real. Alex Jones taught me about them. Listen, man, thank you very much. Thank you for everything. Appreciate you. Stay alive.
Elon Musk
I mean, I do think like. Like, one argument for me staying alive is that it's more entertaining if I'm alive than if I'm dead.
Joe Rogan
Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. I just.
Elon Musk
But I could be alive and, like, injured, which we saw. Which suck, right? Like the wink just like shoot my arm off or something, right?
Joe Rogan
No, no, no, we don't want that.
Joe Rogan
No, keep the security strong.
Elon Musk
Yeah, Copy with one hand.
Joe Rogan
All right. All right, thank you.