Tucker Carlson Tonight — Part 2

do you believe there's a power higher than people yeah I mean I yeah I mean I think there's there's a lot we don't know uh we don't we don't know like like why does reality exist uh why where did it come from um where are the aliens um what questions should we ask that we don't even know ask um so when you say what are the aliens what where are the aliens oh like why don't we see them a lot of people think we see aliens but I I've not seen any evidence of aliens um you know we've got 6,000 satellites in orbit and not once have we had to maneuver around an alien spacecraft uh so um but on this Earth the US military has had to do a lot of maneuvering around objects they can't EXP Point well unidentified fing objects one thing but uh I mean there's always

there's always a bunch of um classified programs that are underway uh that uh of of new aircraft and new missiles and things so that that are classified even within the military so it's you know only you know the if you have the top secret compartmented clearance would you know about this new program so then you know some pilot sees something fast moving fast and says hey or UFO I'm like yeah that was actually a new reference program but we can't tell you that should but I I I if you can guarantee that the split second I see any evidence of aliens I will immediately post that on the xplatform and it'll probably be number one post of all time that'll be your biggest day for sure um I mean but but to the question of a power beyond people beyond our Consciousness

a creator where are you on that well we must we must have come from somewhere um so I guess you know that there must be some Creator or creative force or something that caused our exist existence to come into being what is the nature of that Creator um that I think is UN unknown at least I think it is it is there's to I I I I can't I don't know if a definitive answer to that um so um but it sounds like you're open yes I I'm very open to you know I I I I'm I'm driven by Cur curiosity yes um and uh I'm trying to understand more about the nature of the universe so my my my driving philosophy is uh to understand the meaning of life or or really what questions to ask if the meaning of the life the meaning of life is is is not the right question like as your

dougas Adams made the point in the hit is guide of the Galaxy that the what is the meaning of life is probably not even the right question um so you know famously the in that book the Earth was actually a computer to figure out the question answer to the question what is the meaning of life and then came up with the answer 42 um but then they're like what does that mean and it's like oh that's that's that's answer but the question is the really hard part you'll need a much bigger computer than Earth to figure that one out so so My Philosophy is that we should try to expand the scope and scale of Consciousness we should try to have more humans more thinking uh and um and perhaps there there's an argument even for machine Consciousness um so let me just

address those in order so the first is you say we need more people and not commit civilizational suicide seem like the US government if you take three steps back is pretty committed to making fewer Americans yeah there's a lot of anti- fertility propaganda a lot actually that seems like their main sort of domestic social policy is convincing you not to have kids what is that um I mean that's certainly part of civilizational suicide um the the the environmental movement in the extreme is fundamentally misanthropic and anti human yes um they start seeing humans as a plague a blight on the surface of the Earth that if that Earth would be this paradise if only the humans weren't here and some people actually have say this explicitly there's there's there's

the extinctionist society that literally they they the this guy who's the head of the extinctionist society was on the front page of the New York Times quoted as saying there are 8 billion people in the world it would be better if there were none so the people who actually say that explicitly which is is is completely insane he's advocating Holocaust B of humanity um to utter madness he should be condemned for such a statement but he wasn't for some reason uh now most people on the on the sort of uh environmental movement have that implicitly they not they they don't realize that they have that as their optimization but but that is their actions uh head take us towards uh Extinction um so though um a lot of people believe that the Earth can't sustain

this level of human population which is utterly untrue um it may seem in a crowded City that there are a lot of people but actually if you look down on airplane and you say look down am I over a person at any given point in time when you're an airplane the answer is 99.

9% of the time no like If you flew from LA to New York and say your your drive is to drop a ball on someone and and hit them you would fail you have to drop a lot of balls you have to drop a lot of balls they could be insane so um all of the humans on Earth can fit on one floor in the city of New York yeah the cross-sectional area of of all humans 8 billion humans is small so we we have this uh totally wrong idea that uh the Earth is over overly overpopulated where in fact it is underpopulated how do I mean have you ever heard a politician say anything like that are there how many pro there's there's maybe a few um pro-human politicians out there yeah I mean like um like Victor Oran Georgia Maloney yes we're starting to see pronatalist uh politicians

um and hopefully more as time goes by um I think there's a guy that just elected in the Czech Republic who's also Pro natalist um now these have to translate into actual actions that change the birth rate or it doesn't matter so far I've not seen any country Mak a meaningful dent in the both rate what would you do if you were in charge of natalist policy uh first of all I changed the education uh system so that people understand uh that you stop being taught that we're overpopulated this this is completely false um a lot of it comes from this insane misanthropic book that Paul erck wrote the population bomb like 60 years ago yeah I hope he burns in hell that guy seriously um terrible human being tot absolute Miss and Thro um and uh and say just look the

the Earth can absolutely sustain this population it could we could double trouble of population um there's a professor I was talking to at Oxford um who who's his math says we could 10x the population without destroying the Amazon rainforest or anything terrible so um so I think we should expand the human population and increase the scope and scale of Consciousness so we can better understand uh the nature of this universe this wonderful Universe um and and all the amazing things that exist and and and so so that's one of the things I'd like we need to stop teaching people false propaganda that the Earth is overpopulated um I think we need to uh you know in especially with with the education of woman and man and is is we need to stop scaring woman that

having a kid destroys your life this is false you know we terrify girls into saying that if you get pregnant it's your life's over and this is this is what schools teach um now I agree we should not have teenage pregnancies yeah but but but um but actually having a child is one of the most delightful happiness inducing things you could possibly do of course of course um so um there's um there's also uh you know with um hormonal birth control I think uh maybe a lot of women are unaware that hormonal birth control causes depression um and and dramatically increases risk of suicide uh and changes uh their their preferences on who they want to um marry or have kids with uh it it changes their personality um and not do say this on the Box by the way caution

may change your personality yes if the warnings are uh has significant cause significant risk of depression significant increase in suicide um and will make you want to go out with people that you don't actually like that's actually true by the way I know um I'm not saying that people shouldn't use birth control I think we should just be we shouldn't use I think hormonal birth control is is is making is making a lot of women sad and depressed yes and they don't realize it and they don't realize that's the cause and and that you know there other forms of contraception that could be used and that we should they should just read the just read the label on the box is what I'm saying that was cons what you just said the warning label that was like the most

taboo thing you could ever say for most of my life was to offer any criticism at all of hormonal birth control look I'm all I'm saying is read the warning label yeah fair but why the pressure not to read the warning label and just why are we giving it to 12-year-olds to regulate their acne right I I think we should give it to 12-year-olds uh like kid kids they don't know what's going on so it's like um now like there you know I think there there are other forms of bir control I think are have fewer negative uh effects um and than hormonal but but that's we should just be aware that that that uh this is not a riskless thing and it it does cause severe mood changes it does dramatically increase risk of suicide and depression um so so just FYI you know just

make sure you that that that there's full disclosure here and and that you want all those read the warning label is all I'm saying just read you know and and consider maybe other options for both control to any woman list thing just just just read the warning label and consider other options um cuz the the reason the reason you're sad might be the the the birth control the hormonal birth control that is fundamentally changing the hormones in your body in a ways that probably not good for you um and you it I know women where where it they sto taking birth control and their depression immediately disappeared so that's maybe worth a try but then you miss an opportunity maybe it's the birth control then you don't you don't get to go on ssris yeah yeah I think

the esis are the devil what you don't they I so vehemently agree with you but I I guess I guess once you endorse Trump you can just say it all now right no I I think selective serona rap Inhibitors are uh zombify people um and and change their personality and make them not who they are terrible they're so common yes I I I think we should revisit whether this is this is actually good I disagree with you the sris are like I'm not saying we should that no one should ever be subscribed as sris but giving them out like candy is uh crazy you look at like sort of uh anti-depressant prescriptions in the United States versus other countries and we're like way above everyone else oh yeah I have seen many many times in my life in the news business after a mass shooting

like school for example yeah someone will say well what meds was the shooter on yeah exactly and immediately be shouted down as a crazy person as a you know Bobby Kennedy level wacko yes who should himself be institutionalized for even raising the question I always wonder like why wouldn't we want to know what meds a m absolutely want to know what meds are on no now sometimes it's it's perhaps they were on because there like some people do I I you know I don't say it's like all one all the other um I me there are there are people that have fundamental chemical imbalances in their brain and if they don't take uh medication to control for example uh paranoid schizophrenia they will have paranoid schizophrenia for sure um and uh and and I know many cases

where people stop taking their you know meds and uh and and lost their mind oh yeah uh and uh and then try to try to kill people and stuff like that so it's or themselves well the guy with the axe on Market Street probably should be on meds that guy should we should try it yeah it make you know does he want to ax mot more or less on a given Med uh you know um so so there there are psychiatric medications that I that with where the good outweighs bad I'm not saying that that doesn't exist uh but we overprescribe psychiatric medication in the United States obviously uh far in excessive any other country like you know way more than Canada or Britain or Japan or any China anywhere it's like we're off the charts on on psychiatric uh medication prescriptions

in the US why why don't people raise that point more often I wonder in public I should I'm I'm raising it yeah you are you said that um artificial intelligence machine intelligence um might be a good thing where where are we on AI right now AG right now and what are your views I think at this point it's obvious to everyone that AI is advancing at a very rapid Pace yes um you can see it with the new capabilities that come out every month or every every week sometimes AI at this point can write a better essay than probably 90% maybe 95% of all humans say write an essay on any given subject um AI right now can can beat the vast majority of humans um uh if you say draw an image draw a picture um it can draw like um if you try to say mid mid Journey which

is the Aesthetics of mid Journey are incredible um it will draw it will create incredible images uh that are better than again like 90% of artists it's just objectively the case and it'll do it immediately like 30 seconds later um we're also starting to see uh AI movies so you start seeing you know short films with AI um uh AI Music Creation and the the rate at which we're increasing AI compute is exponential hyperexponential so there's dramatically more AI compute coming on online every every month you know there seems to be roughly I don't know the the amount of AI computer coming online is increasing at like I don't quote roughly 500% a year and like it's like that's likely to continue for several years the and then the sophistication of the uh AI

algorithms is also improving so we're bringing online a massive amount of AI compute and also improving the efficiency of the computer and and what and like what what the AI software can do so it's it's it's quantitative and qualitative in Improvement um so the you know I I might I think next year we you'll be be able to ask AI so certainly by the end of next year make a short movie about something or you know probably can do at least a 15minute you know show or something like that so yeah it's advancing very rapidly my top concern for AI safety is that we need to have a maximally truth seeking AI this is the most important thing for AI safety in my opinion you know the the central lesson that say Arsy clar was trying to convey in 2001 Space Odyssey was

that you shouldn't Force AI to lie um so in that book the AI was told to take the astronauts to the monolith but they also could not know about the monolith it resoled that uh quandry by killing them and taking them to the monolith or didn't kill all of them killed most of them that's why H hell would not open the pod bay doors uh very important to have truth seeking AIS now and what what I actually see with the AI that are being developed is that they're being programmed with the work mind virus um so the lying is baked in yes um and we saw this on display very clearly with the release of Google Gemini yes uh where you would ask for a picture of the founding fathers of the United States um and it would show a group of diverse women and you know dressed

in in with sort of 18th century golf pow powdered wigs but from St Lucia yeah I mean like look if I understand if you say like show me a group of people for sure if and it shows a group of divorce women that's totally fine but if you say this if you say this very specifically the the founding follows of the United States which were you know group of white dudes then should show them like and and with and and what they actually look like cuz you've asked for something which is a a fact from history um but it didn't uh it was it was programmed with the work mind virus so so much that it it actually even though it knew the truth it it It produced a lie um now of course then then people really started playing with it and said okay now now show me a group

of fafen ss officers in World War II turns out they were also a griffin divorce woman according to Gemini black Nazi ladies yeah it's it's like wow I didn't realize that you know it's not what I expected um so you know well it's also not what happened it's not what happened so it's just it the AI is is producing a lie um and um and then you know then there like one of the questions that people the people asked was like which is worst uh Global throwing your nulear war or misgendering Caitlyn Jenner and said misgendering Caitlyn Jenner is worse now Caitlyn Jenner kill kills fewer people yeah to Kaden Jenna to her credit I said no please misgender me that is far more preferable than World War Global ther nuclear war we all die but but to have it you know

a production release AI say stuff like that is concerning um because if the if let's say this becomes like all powerful and it's and it still has this programming um where misgendering is worse than nuclear war well it could conclude that the way to ensure that there there can never be any misgendering is to eliminate all humans now Pro if like optimization is probability of misgendering is zero no no humans no misgendering problem solved now we're back to Arthur C Clark who's exactly pretty preent yes so that's why I think the most important thing is to have a maximally truth seeking AI That's why I saw it xai and that's our goal with grock um no people will point out cases where grock gets it wrong but we try to correct it as quickly as possible but

maybe even a bigger problem is that when you make decisions that affect people you want those decisions to be informed by love of people yeah and machines are incapable of love yeah I mean there there they certainly are cap they're capable of you can program a machine to be philanthropic rather than misanthropic yes um but don't don't instincts shape decisions particularly decisions you can't plan for I mean if I ask you you know a question about one of your children every answer you give is going to be shaped by your love for that child and that's why you know that that's what makes us decent parents in the end is that that instinct which is love and if a machine has any power over us without that animating Instinct won't it def by definition hurt us

yeah well whe whether I mean I don't know it we should certainly aspire to program the AI philanthropically not M anthropically yes um and to have like I said we wanted to be truthful and Cur curious and to Foster Humanity into the future um and uh yeah that's what we want obviously is there any way I guess to set limits on the decisions that machines can make that affect human lives and make certain that there's some trigger in the system that inserts a human being into the decision-making process well the look The the reality of what's Happening whether one likes it or not um is that we're building super intelligent AIS hyper like hyper intelligent like intelligent more intelligent than we can comprehend yes um so I'd like this to like let's say you

have a child that is a Super Genius child that that you know it's going to be much smarter than you then what can you do you you can instill still good values in how you raise that child so even though you know it's going to be far smarter than you um you can make sure it's got good values philanthropic values um good morals you know honest uh you know productive that kind of thing controlling at the end of the day I I don't know if I don't think we'll be able to control it uh so I think the best we can do is make sure it grows up well you've been saying that for a long time I've saying for a long time yes are you still as worried about it as you seem to be two years ago when I asked you about it well I I think that like my guess is like look it's it's

it's 80% likely to be good maybe 90 um so you could look think of the glass as 80% full it's probably going to be it's probably going to be great there's some chance of annihilation and You' say the chance of annihilation is 20% 10 to 20% something like that how concerned is Sam Alman about Annihilation do you think I think in reality is not concerned about it I don't trust open a I mean I you know I started that company as a nonprofit open source yes the open and open AI I named the compy I named the company yeah open AI as an open source um and it is uh now extremely closed source and and Ma and maximizing profit so does risk I don't understand how you actually go from being a an open source nonprofit to a Clos source for maximum profit organization

I'm missing well but Sam got rich didn't he at various points he's claimed not to be getting rich but he's claimed many things that were false um and now apparently he's going to get10 billion a stock or something like that so um I don't trust Sam Alman and I and I don't think we want to have the most powerful AI in the world controlled by someone who is not trustworthy and sorry I just don't I mean but that that seems like a fair concern yeah but but you don't think as someone who knows him and has dealt with him that he is worried about the possibility this could get out of control and hurt people he will say those words but no if AI did if it became clear to the rest of us that it was out of control and posed a threat to humanity would there be any

way to stop it I hope so I mean if you have multiple AIS and ones that are hopefully you have the AIS that are prum be stronger than the AIS that are not Battle of the AIS yeah yeah I mean that that is how it is with say chess these days the the um like the AI chess programs Al are vastly better than any human um in incomprehensibly better meaning like we can't even understand why it made that right why they're so good right we don't even know why it made it'll make a move we don't know why it made the move um so and in fact some of the moves will seem like blunders but then turn out to Checkmate and you know for a while there there was there was some the best human chest players with the best computers could beat just a computer and then it got to the

point where if you added a human it just made everything worse and then it was just AI it's just computer programs versus computer programs that's that's where things are headed in general what I mean sweet dreams um at what point so I don't know I think we just got to make like I said make sure we instill good values in the AI what's everyone going to do for a living I mean in a benign AI scenario that is probably the biggest challenge is how do you find meaning if AI is better than you at everything that's the benan scenario that's the good news well yeah but I guess you know for a lot of people like the idea of retiring and you know um really are you looking forward to it no not me I I'd like to hope I'd like to think that I I'd like to be do useful

things um don't you think it's a universal desire it's it's it's not it's not Universal in that there are certainly I know maybe people who prefer to be retired that they prefer to sort of have not have responsibilities and engage in in leisure activities I we and we're on the cusp of of this is it's really a remarkable time to exist um well I'll tell you like one of the ways I I sort of was able to sort of sleep and Rec reconcile myself to um to this is that I I thought well would I prefer to be alive and see the Advent of digital super intelligence or what what prefer to be alive at a different time and not see it and I guess I'm like well I guess I'd prefer to be alive to see if it's going to happen I prefer to be alive to see it happen out of curiosity

um and then I was like well let's say you knew for sure it would uh kill everyone would you you you could now now you can shift back in time like I guess I'd want to be near the end of my life or something before that happened but I at at the end of it's like if um if it's going to happen uh and there's nothing you do about it hypothetically would you prefer to see it or not see it and I guess I I guess it's going to happen I prefer to see it rather than not see it yeah but as a man of action why not convince Trump to make you Secretary of Defense and then just nuke AI I I I I I think I I would certainly push for a having some kind of regulatory body that at least has insight into what uh these companies are doing and Can Ring the Alarm Bell even if we

don't have a regulation or rule so I'm not I'm not someone who wants to get rid of all regulatory agencies or anything I think we' there's the right number of regulations right number of regulators and we've gone we've gone too far just like if you in a football game if you had too many referees on the field it would be weird like you can't throw the pass because we hit a referee exactly then there's too many referees um so uh but but no but if you like it say look at any pro sports game um they all have referees like the teams could decide we're going to have game we're going to not have referees that could be a thing but but every sports game they have refs to make sure that the rules are followed and um and it's it's a better game if if you have well

we have cops too yeah yeah exactly cops are the referees so uh I think we for for something that is a a danger to the public or potential danger to the public we we have referees we have Regulators you know so um like the FDA and the FAA and you know the various Regulatory Agencies they were they were established because aircraft were falling out of the sky and and some manufacturers were not you know building high quality aircraft they're cutting corners and then people will die um and uh you know for Food and Drugs that so manufacturers were making lowquality drugs and so they that they they're lying to people so saying that something cured them when it killed them um so FDA to you know Regulators to referees to try to uh make you make sure that this

this uh drug manufactures are truthful now I do think it mostly works I mean I think it's doesn't mean don't need regulatory form we do reform we do but um I don't think we should have no Regulators in AI given that it's potential existential risk a little weird that everything is regulated yeah I mean you said you're being sued by the Department of Justice for not hiring more Asylum Seekers for your high-tech company yeah even though it's IL legal for us to hire s s right so um so they're watching everything regulating everything controlling everything including our thoughts right that's why they're opposed to free speech but they're not meaningfully regulating AI which will eliminate like the purpose for most people's lives and could kill us all it's

a little weird yeah I think we should have some why don't we I guess something above nothing right in that range yeah but why don't we I don't know um you know I I all the way back like I like during the Obama presidency um I I I you know i' met with a many times but usually in like group settings um the the one one-on-one meeting I had with aama in the of office I said look the one thing that we really need to do is set up an the beginnings of an AI regulatory agency and it can start with Insight where you don't you don't just come shooting from the hip throwing out regulations you just start with Insight where the the AI regulatory committee uh simply goes into understand what all the companies are doing insight and then proposes rules that all the

AI companies agree to follow just like you know sports teams in the NFL you know you have proposed rules for football that everyone agrees to follow um that make the game better you know so that that's the way to do it um but nothing came of it what did he say when he said that to him I mean he seemed to like kind of agree but but also people didn't realize what what the where AI was headed that at that time you know so AI seemed like some super futuristic yeah for sure sci-fi basically so like I'm telling you this is going to be smarter than the smartest human and um my predictions are coming absolutely true and uh so we need to have some insight here just to make make sure that the companies aren't cutting Corners um doing dangerous things go Google

kind of controlled the the White House at that time and and they they did not want any regulatory well that's it I mean you never see politicians turn down opportunities to become more powerful which is the point of Regulation it makes them more powerful yeah so it sounds like regulatory capture then well yeah um I mean the CIO of the the Ys at the time was ex Google person so um they they put the break on any AI regulation and we still don't have any AI regulation at the federal level I think we should have something above nothing um like I said at least Insight where even even if there's no there's no rule that's being break broken they can at least say hey we we have insight into what this company are doing or that company is doing and we're concerned

that would be helpful to know yeah instead politically motivated Liars are in charge of the future it seems a little yeah sketchy last question you you really kind of pulled out a lot of stops to help Trump you're on stage yesterday if he gets elected will you continue to help him yeah now absolutely so well we've talked about um kind of a government efficiency commission or the department of government efficiency which is a funny what what sorry I'm just laugh I love it you managed to make it sound a little CTI or government what percentage of Google employees did you can when you got there you mean Twitter rather I B sorry I just you just been talking about Google Twitter yeah yeah um well we we we're about 80% and and and we've we've actually um improved

the features and functionality of the site more in you the past year and a half than the last I don't know eight years with 20% of the staff so just for I just want to throw that for context so you've talked to Trump about yeah some kind of commission yeah which he's he has mentioned publicly several times uh and he's SP supportive of having some kind of you know government efficiency commission uh call the Department of government efficiency Doge um I kind of like Doge it's more it's more fun um yeah uh and uh well we just take a look at at at all the federal agencies and say do we really need whatever it is 428 federal agencies like there's so many that people never even heard of or and that have overlapping areas of responsibility we should I don't

know probably we should get I mean there there are more federal agencies than there are years since the establishment of the United States which means that we've created more than one Federal agency per year on average that seems a lot that's a lot that's a lot uh so we should have that's seems crazy I think we should be able to get away with uh 99 agencies I don't know that seems a lot like a lot of agencies it's a lot yeah yeah um two per state that's a lot yeah exactly uh we should have fewer agencies um and uh and they certainly shouldn't have overlapping responsibilities um and and then we need some kind of we just need a review of regulations to say which ones are sensible and which ones are not because if you've got Regulators every year they're

going to add more regulations it's just automatic like like they're just output regulations um and and then and there's more laws and regulations every year until basically everything's legal um so we can't get anything done so we need some kind of garbage collection for regulations that don't make sense I think I'm saying very obvious things you're you are saying obvious things yeah so which will be very unpopular things yeah um I'll probably need if if this happens a quite a significant security team um so that cuz cuz someone might literally go postal on me from the post office but in the meantime you've got America pack yeah that is encouraging voting for the next month am I summarizing correctly uh yeah I I me a formed America pack um really support

core values that I believe in uh which are I think again very obvious Centrist uh positions which is like we in America I think we want safe cities uh secure borders uh sensible spending tell me where I'm going far right here um uh you know we want to uh have the right to self- protection um we we should respect the Constitution and not try to break the Constitution it's therefore reason um and um you know we we should stop lawfare um and I kind of listed these out these are listed on the America Pac website people can go look at the America Pac website it's the americ pac.

org and see if there's anything I disagree with um or perhaps we should modify these goals but I think these are good goals to have they uh they were certainly part of the oh and right to free speech uh you know uh First Amendment um if we don't have free speech we don't have democracy because people cannot make an informed vote those are my controversial views and you know and and look I I I don't think e either party I don't think the Republicans are perfect I don't think obviously right now I more Republican than Democrat but it's not like I think the Republican party is perfect or or it's without issues um but we've got a choice between two candidates and I think on balance it's a no-brainer uh to vote for Trump and if we don't vote for Trump I think

we are at Ser serious risk of losing our democracy and becoming a onep party state where um there isn't an election anymore there's only a Democratic primary like there is in California